Proc-watching + DP.

[Nixx]

Are we really weighing 2orbprocs vs 3orbnoproc? Shouldn't the real question be 2orbprocs vs whateverelsewe'dbecastingprocs (ie MF)?

That's the perspective I'm taking on this, at least, because normally you wouldn't even consider casting a 2orb DP because it is a 1GCD loss overall. If we assume that a 2orb DP with every proc/cd/buff will never, ever, EVAR be better than a 3orb DP then the entire debate becomes moot.

In reality we need to determine a few things (in order):

1. Is the situation: 1 GCD left to cast with proc X, 2orbs ready.
2. Will a 2orb DP with all these procs do more damage than a 3orb DP without these procs would?
3. Will the amount of damage done by (DPx2*Buffs - DPx3) be greater than {INSERT ABILITY OFF CD HERE}?

If you can do 14000*3 for 1 MF cast OR you could do 2000 more damage from a DPx2*Buffs than you would if you waited for DPx3 normally, then you should cast the MF. If not...well, that's where things get complicated.

Maybe I'm missing something then or just misunderstanding you.

DP scales linearly with the number of orbs, right? So the damage of a 3 orb DP shouldn't matter since you're still converting orbs into damage at the same rate and not losing anything in that regard.

What should matter is the potential gain of any other spell you could be casting (which should be a simple matter of comparing coefficients I think) in addition to the lost MF damage from the extra time we spending casting DP, reducing its efficiency.

Right?

[Kilee]

I think Nixx is saying what I was trying to say.

I'm looking at this as an "either do this or do that" scenerio, and just looking at that small window where it happens. You are correct that it affects the entire fight, but in the end, each time it happens you can still narrow it down to a small window of "you either cast this or you cast that".

I'm just glancing at simcraft's DPET results and thinking of my earlier comparison:

DP2 = 102,610
DP3 = 146,853
MF/2 = 11,330

1*DP2 + 1/3 * DP3 = 151,561
1.5*MF/2 + DP3 = 163,848

I realize this is very generic napkin-math-ery, but it seems to me the "enhanced" DP2 only has to make up 12k "dpet" in order to be worth it. That seems like an awfully small amount to me.

Just puttering around in simcraft, I only have to add about 1000 (@85)intellect to hit that. I know I'm not too far off the mark here, and the average trinket proc is about that or more.

Well.. bleh.. now that I'm seeing that even if it "was" a DPS increase, it probably wouldn't be enough to really, truly matter, it seems like a moot point.

[Narkissus]

I would add to the guide that DP 1/2 Orb should be casted in prior to SWP when u have to move or when u have lets say 2-3 Buffs up that are about to fade.

Also I was thinking that everyone should do some math and try to find out if u could get another tick from SWP/VT after adding some extra haste (just some minor amount 30-40 or so) over the cap with 30% from BL/TW since 18% of the fight time is quite long period to make this worth consider.

[Kilee]

In reality we need to determine a few things (in order):

Pulling this out for replies as I wanted to clear something up with Twintop's analysis.

Is the situation: 1 GCD left to cast with proc X, 2orbs ready.

I think the analysis can be done with 1 or 2 orbs remaining, and that the math will roughly work out the same (but more in favor of 2-orbs vs 1).

Will a 2orb DP with all these procs do more damage than a 3orb DP without these procs would?

My question is not asking wether a simple 2-orb + proc will beat a normal 3-orb. My question is more complex. I'm asking whether a sequences of casts will end up doing more damage in the the long run.

Will the amount of damage done by (DPx2*Buffs - DPx3) be greater than {INSERT ABILITY OFF CD HERE}?

If you can do 14000*3 for 1 MF cast OR you could do 2000 more damage from a DPx2*Buffs than you would if you waited for DPx3 normally, then you should cast the MF. If not...well, that's where things get complicated.

I think you are comparing the wrong data here. The logic of (DP2*buffs - DPx3) is the wrong formula for figuring this out.

Let's look at it this way instead:

You have 20 seconds to dps a dummy. You will start the fight by procing a trinket (which is not on-use), that will only last 15 seconds.

DP3 will become availably at the 17.5 second mark.

You will cast the same number of dots with both versions, and the same number of Mind Blasts. The only difference is that on the 2nd MB cast, while the proc is still active, you cast DPx2, and at the very end of 20 seconds, you cast DP1 at the same moment you cast DP3 in the first sample.

The only difference in your 20 second test is this:

(bonus)DP2 + DP1

vs

(bonus)MF2 + DP3

I know other variables could potentially come into play, but this is the the comparison that needs to be made here. I don't see any other factor that is contributing to the question.

[Nixx]

Code: Select all

Mind Blast

2704 to 2856 (+ 191.7% of SpellPower) Shadow damage

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Mind Spike

1304 to 1376 (+ 130.4% of SpellPower) Shadowfrost damage * 1.5

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Shadow Word: Pain

623 (+ 29.3% of SpellPower) Shadow damage instantly, and an additional (3738 ( + 29.3% of SpellPower) - 623 ( + 29.3% of SpellPower)) Shadow damage

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Vampiric Touch

310 (+ 34.6% of SpellPower) Shadow damage over 15 sec.

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Halo

up to 15163 to 25270 (+ 195% of SpellPower) Shadow damage

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Devouring Plague

(1,642 + 78.3% of SP) Shadow damage and an additional (274 + 13.0% of SP) Shadow damage every 1 sec for 6 sec.

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Mind Flay

3147 (+ 50% of SpellPower) Shadow damage over 3 sec

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Shadow Word: Death

2183 (+ 187.6% of SpellPower) Shadow damage

Couldn't find the information for Shadowfiend.

It seems like Mind Blast, Halo, and Mind Spike are all better choices than a 2 orb DP based solely on the coefficient. They also don't have the MF penalty because they aren't wasting a GCD.

[Kilee]

I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion, but thank you for the information.

Unless your point is that you feel one of the other abilities will be available at the point where the proc is ending.

The situation I'm putting forth is that you only have a choice of casting another MF, or DP2.

[Nixx]

I didn't see MF specified. I thought we were generally determining the value of dumping DP with <3 orbs to benefit most from the proc, so we should account for all reasonable possibilities. Mybad.

[Kilee]

I suppose it's my fault for not explicitly stating it. I thought it was implied that you would stick to priority, and that if there WAS something better to cast, you would have already done it.