[H2P] How to use the Tier 13 4-piece set bonus.

[Kilee]

Hey Aleysia,

I think it may require a lot of haste to get all of those fit into it. Different haste levels allow different rotations... that's something I'm still looking into.

[Arlee]

I want to do some testing with:

AA
MB
SF
MSx4
(delay, or cancel Mind Melt aura)
MB
MSx4
(delay, or cancel Mind Melt aura)
MB
(fiend/AA end)

If this becomes the case, you just replace any of the 4 MS with 2 SW: D.

Yea I stumbled onto that rotation tonight, because I am a tard and have trouble following directions sometimes, and it did seem like it worked better overall.

[Kilee]

I have revised the original post with feedback from everyone over the past couple days. I'd like to thank everyone who spoke to me and gave me different rotations to try and world of logs to look at.

Hopefully this version will work better for everyone.

[Raquell]

Hmm... wouldn't you still get a 3rd 3-orb MB if you don't /cancelaura? I might be totally mistaken, but I thought the cooldown starts after the spell finishes casting, so having an instant cast MB would effectively shorten the duration between MBs slightly.

This is true.

A Little Analysis
Given most people are running haste in the 2589-3000 level currently, the cast time is 1.1538s->1.1242s. In the example below I will use 2589 or 30% haste (after buff).

Code: Select all

Timer
0.0000s  1 GCD used casting SF (SF attacks 3 orbs proc)
1.1538s  1 GCD used casting MB (MB hits normal, SF melee twice, one orb wasted)
2.3077s  4 GCDs used casting MSx4 (MB CD starts at 2.3077s, all orbs used)
6.9231s  MS CD is at (1.8848s): you can fit 1xMS and idle 0.731s or 2 tick MF
8.8076s  1 GCD used casting instant MB (CD starts at 8.8076)
9.9614s  3 GCD used casting MSx3
13.4228s 1xMS and wait or 2 ticks of MF
15.0000s SF ends
15.3076s Instant MB after CD finishes (3 orbs should be on this.

Better Optimization
I can see this as good but you have enlightened me to something else. 3 MB crits, with 3 orbs, easy one button macroable.

Code: Select all

MS(if you want +90% crit on first MB rather than +60% else skip)
DAA
MSx2
SF
MB (Instant)
MSx4
Wait (6.5s-(5xGCD)s)
MB (Instant)
MSx4
Wait (6.5s-(5xGCD)s)
MB (Instant)
*** 0.8s remain of SF, this can account for real-time delay or if 3 orbs proc you can MS or save it for the next MB***
SF Ends with DAA ending shortly after


OH NOES!! MATH

You could of course use 2 ticks MF instead of the 4th MS but let's mathcrafted it out. The advantage of stacking evangelism during SF:

- On average, one MS is almost 200% the damage as two ticks of MF.
- This gap gets bigger as your gear goes up as MS scales better than MF.
- Given MB is on CD after this rotation you must MF anyways
- The opportunity cost of 5xMF ticks before casting SWP VT DP is the ticks of dots that would occur if you didn't have to get the evangelism buff.
- SWP is applied first so only the difference of 5xEva vs 0eva (10% of a tick).
- VT Ticks 1.6x and DP ticks 1.85x during your ramp up (there is some approximation here).
- 10% of a SWP tick, 1.6x VT ticks, and 1.85x DP ticks is about 25k damage
- Advantage of 2xMS vs 4xMFtick is about 40k

Considering the easiness of using only two spells during SF, and the fact that 4xMF only gives you 4 stacks of evangelism, it definitely suggest using just MS. But it doesn't make too much difference, the money makers are getting the orbs on every Mind cast, and especially the crit Mind Blasts.

How many times does Shadow Fiend Attack?

Furthermore, I have dummy tested Shadow Fiend. It hits 11 times every single time on the dummy. Meaning a perfect rotation could take 11, 3 orb casts. The above rotation takes advantage of 10, with a possible 11th if your latency is very low. 3 Mind Blasts are crits and with 3 orbs (one is +60% if you chose to only MS twice before rotation), you could be unlucky and time it wrong but you will only lose one orb proc on average, hopefully it's not a MB.

Could we haste Shadow Fiend's melee?

I also tested Heroism with a friend and dummy. Everytime I heroismed with SF where the SF was out for 0.5s or less the SF attacked a total of 13 times. If I messed it up it would be 12 attacks. SF really seems to attack 1.5 seconds without Heroism, and heroism hastes by 30%. I'm unsure if the shadowfiend benefits from any other buffs such as Enhancement Shaman's Windfury Totem. But with Heroism, and MS/MB spam I use every orb. However, if the SF does not get heroism it is a DPS LOSS, because you are casting MS/MB faster but the orbs are limited at 11. Therefore as Kilee suggest it's best to do normal rotation during Heroism.

Some numbers for people to put things in perspective (estimations from sim), at about 385ilevel:
- Mind Blast crits for over 100k damage with 3 orbs
- Mind Spike hits for over 35k damage, more with orbs less without, and crits for 80k average
- Mind Flay hits for just under 10k per tick, crits for 20k.
- Vampiric Touch ticks for avg 10k crit 20k
- Devouring Plague ticks for avg 5k crit 10k
- Shadow Word: Pain ticks for avg 5.7k crit 12k

[Aleysia]

It's late so, my short reply is:

I've tried it, and I think it's probably a wash. 3x un-orbed MS's is a huge dps loss, and the extra 3-orb MB crit probably just about evens it out. If one does do slightly more than the other, it's likely gear-dependent.

You also have to take into account the fact that your rotation is now ~25-26 seconds instead of ~21-22 (including the stacking of evangelism) so you benefit less from pre-potting.

Lastly, at least based on target dummy testing, SF has a chance to be parried (or dodged? or something?) on the first hit, I guess because the dummy is facing towards me as I cast. I do spam /cast Shadowcrawl and /petattack too. This means that in that kind of situation, even though your SF should technically hit the dummy within the GCD between casting SF and an instant MB, it may not. I haven't had any issues when casting a normal MB after SF though, and based on the combat log it seems like SF actually attacks twice in that window.

[Kilee]

It is also late here... but if you are wanting to get 3 MB, the rotation I had before I took it down might be better. Aleysia is correct that the "wind up" creates some issues with timing and procs.

I'll play around with it tomorrow and see how it feels when casting.

I'll have to read through the rest tomorrow, but I agree with you about heroism.

[Kilee]

Raquell,

I'm sitting at the dummy right now testing... this is all I'm able to fit into the rotation:

DAA
MSx2
SF
MB (Instant)
MSx4
Wait (6.5s-(5xGCD)s)
MB (Instant)
MSx3
Mind Flay 2 (SF ends around here)
Wait (6.5s-(5xGCD)s) (DAA aends around here!)
MB (Instant)

Changes in red. I'm unable to fit 4 MSs into the last half of the rotation without shadowfiend despawning, and DAA seems to be ending before the last Mind Blast... The timing is right in theory, but the "wait for 3 orbs" portion ends up taking too long.

Also the spellpower debuffs seem to be running out before the 3rd MB... so timing there worries me.

It is a very strong opener though. I will experiment with it some more and keep trying to make it work.

Edit: Yeah I don't think it's going to work. The timing is too tight, and doesn't line up perfectly with the swing timer on shadowfiend.

[Taradenha]

I have tested most suggestions when building the action list, but keep posting possible enhancements and I'll test it again.

MS before SF is a dps loss.
You're wasting 2 or 3 gcd with a low dmg spell while having a lot of procs and pre pot, also, as Aleysia said, you won't be able to dot while the pot is still up.

MF during this phase is certainly a dps loss, no matter what you do, nothing justifies casting a spell that has less than half the DPET of MS in a phase you dont have dots running.

MB before SF is a slight dps loss, you'd be casting MB without orbs unnecessarily.
If you cast MB right after SF you'll have to watch for SF time to not waste the last set of orbs with MS (which is not difficult assuming you have a proper UI). Both ways you'll get 3 MBs with 3 orbs, the difference is that the 4th MB will have a higher expected value of shadow orbs than that first MB you cast before SF.

One thing people seem to forget is that you gain a stack of evangelism upon cast, so a full MF gives 4 stacks of evangelism and if you cast 2 times you only need 3 ticks to have full benefit of the buff.

I think I wasn't clear about the problem with the cancelaura macro.
The problem is that if you spell queue MB right after MS you'll get rid of the previous stacks of mind melt but you'll still gain the buff from the MS you just casted. Few people reported this, so I guess this is a problem with latency (I usually play with 160ms). To circumvent you have to wait till the cast finishes (including the latency zone) since you cannot spell queue, but you'll still use the cancelaura macro.

You should cast VT before SW:P when reapplying dots.

I played a little with reforges and reforging to mastery gave a substancial dps increase.

[Kilee]

I cannot get Shadowfiend before Mind Blast to work, when using a cancel aura macro

My GCD is 1.15s

Shadowfiend
(13.85s left on sf)
Mind Blast
(12.7s left on sf, 6.5s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(11.55s left on sf, 5.35s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(10.4s left on sf, 4.2s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(9.25s left on sf, 3.05s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(8.1s left on sf, 1.9s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(6.95s left on sf, .04s left on mb cd)
Mind Blast
(5.8s left on sf, 6.5s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(4.65s left on sf, 5.35s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(3.5s left on sf, 4.2s left on mb cd)
(if you don't stop here, you might run out of orbs for the 3rd Mind Blast)
Mind Spike
(2.35s left on sf, 3.05s left on mb cd)
(if you don't stop here, you will definately run out of orbs for the 3rd Mind Blast)
Mind Spike
(1.2s left on sf, 1.9s left on mb cd)
Mind Spike
(0.05s left on sf, .04s left on mb cd)

no orbs left

Realistically I need to stop casting after the 7th mind spike (2nd one after 2nd mind blast) in order to garantee 3 orbs for the last Mind Blast, cause lag and latency is going to reduce the consistence at which it works.

And the main issue here is not the casting sequence. The issue is there is literally not enough time in 15 seconds to get three Mind Blasts off. The only way to hit 3 Mind Blasts with 3 orbs is to use filler spells somewhere near the end.

[Raquell]

*Edited at 2012.01.12 18:39 PST: added some comments.

I think we have thoroughly beat this rotation to death.

I raided last night and indeed, theoretical testing timing is much different live.

- Theoretically We should be able to fit 5GCDs between each 6.5s cooldown.
- Being 1.15s x 5 = 5.75.
- Therefore 4xMS, I usually can fit only 3, sometimes 4.
- I'm playing from Japan and latency is 170-300ms.
- The Leatrix Latency doesn't seem to make much difference,
- Maybe my lat is too high.
- I also found macroing all the spells together has more lag than manually pressing them,
- This is especially true with mind spike (is it because I macro my gloves with it and it keeps saying "That's not ready yet") or is it because I'm sending more commands to the server so this makes more lag.

Indeed the 3xMS (1 without daa 2 with) is a big dps loss. I fall back to one MB without crit bonus, 2 instant MB with crit bonus with last one after a VT cast... I want to test this sequence:

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DAA
MS
SF
MB(half cast)
MSx4, MB(Inst)
MSx3
VT
MB(Inst)

This gives us +30% crit on first MB rather than the base crit (under 20% for most spriest) and uses up any orbs during the mind flay opener.

On another note,

You should cast VT before SW:P when reapplying dots.

Wouldn't casting SW:P be better because it auto refreshes while we get 5 stacks of eva. Kinda like this(at end of rotation):
MS(last), SWP, MB (Inst w/3orbs), MFx4, VT, DP, MB, MF...ctd...

During this time SWP can tick for 6GCDs before VT starts ticking and will be auto reapplied with 5xeva when we Flay again.

If we do:

MS(last), VT, MB (Inst w/3orbs), MFx4, SWP, VT, DP MB, MF...ctd...

Then VT ticks for 4GCD before SWP starts ticking, then there is the opportunity cost of 1GCD because VT needs to be cast again for 5xeva buff (is this even worth recasting). I'm not sure which is more optimal but I used to cast SWP first.

Should I do VT first? Maybe we should not even care about evangelism and just cast DP/SWP/VT and recast VT/DP normally or wait for next buff proc.

I know these are really basic questions but I have realized lately that simcraft has it's limitations because it doesn't do rotations, just priority. SWP actually has to be recast here because of Mind Spike when normally you never recast it.