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PTR dps

Re: PTR dps

Postby Shaz » 21 Feb 2013, 22:54

Blackmorgrim wrote:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923993861?page=35#686


Hi Blackmorgrimm.

I thought a lot about your official post and also about Kaesebrezens statement about shadows limited mechanics. Now some things became clear to me, because I recognized a pattern.

If you want to understand the (PvE) balancing problems you have to be aware you have to include and consider three cases
1) shadow on its own
2) shadow with mates controlling the battlefield
3) PvE damage

1)
If you look at 1). SPs are definitely underpowered. Just look at 1:1 situation, where most classes hinder SP of doing anything or 2:2 with mates without heavy cc.
SP clearly have to high damage potential, with too much utility. But this does not weigh in such situations. It is simply countered by cc. To understand what I mean, just play 1:1 against Frost, Warrior or Rogue or..... or 2:2 with a Resto. You are helpless against so many combs, because you cannot do anything useful if your under fire of a cc heavy class.

Th e noticeable fact here is: This situation cannot be balanced! Why?

If you remove CC of others or if you give SP more cc or defenses, SP becomes to strong, because of its potential. If you give even more damage or utility to SP it helps nothing, because it is still countered by cc.

2)
Shadow is too strong here. We all know. And the best about it: It is pretty easy to balance by reducing burst damage.
The "downside": A) It just makes situation 1) even worse and nobody cares and B) It effects PvE damage, where we have a problem for month now.

3) PvE damage. And now the "limitited mechanics" comes into play. Let me extend that thought. It is not only the limited mechanics. It is the fact in PvP cc and burst/utility are tried to be balanced against each other.
No matter how you try to fix the PvE damage problems, there will always be concerns from fraction 2). That became clear to me, while reading that 10% to PI are to powerful in PvP. I mean a cd where you have to stand and cast....MF.
Therefore I do not even think buffing PW:I would help (as you suggested). because even that would hurt situation 2).
The fact is:
More PvE damage hurts Situation 2). No matter where it comes from. when a Shadow can act unhindered in PvP it is to strong. To give more damage to it makes it even stronger.

That is the trap we are caught in from my point of view. The reason is the limited shadow mechanics and the cc against damage balance in pvp. It just failed and we are at the short end. Why?
Because all efforts are dedicated to case 2).

The statement by Blizz "SPs are clearly OP in PvP and need a nerf" does show this. Shadowpriests also does have a significant single target and scaling problem. But it was never mentioned that clearly and all action so far had is main focus on fixing 2). (To call this "flying under the radar" is a bit cynical.)
This does not say the first statement is not correct. It is. But the second is either.And only one of the issues can be solved without hurting the other.

After this thoughts I am pretty disheartened about PvE 5.2. I do not know, how you guys think about it.

As I cannot post in official US forum, feel free to take any passages from my post to copy/use them as you like, if you think it helps our issue.

Thanks and regards

Shazardé
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Re: PTR dps

Postby Shaz » 21 Feb 2013, 22:58

Twintop wrote:So for my #s quoted earlier, I didn't have the extra buff to Shadowform included.

Here's some data with the latest changes (not live on the PTR) for 1 target Patchwerk:

Highest: MFI + PI - 167.2k
Lowest: FDCL + DI - 155.7k


Thanks a lot for you efforts so far. I know its my mantra, but anyhow I will repeat it :-).

For me this numbers do say nothing about balancing on their own. The main information would be what others will do in comparism. Especially Moonkin and Affliction. Do you have any numbers about them?

It wouldn't help to do even 200k if they would do 250K.
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Re: PTR dps

Postby Twintop » 22 Feb 2013, 07:56

Shaz wrote:
Twintop wrote:So for my #s quoted earlier, I didn't have the extra buff to Shadowform included.

Here's some data with the latest changes (not live on the PTR) for 1 target Patchwerk:

Highest: MFI + PI - 167.2k
Lowest: FDCL + DI - 155.7k


Thanks a lot for you efforts so far. I know its my mantra, but anyhow I will repeat it :-).

For me this numbers do say nothing about balancing on their own. The main information would be what others will do in comparism. Especially Moonkin and Affliction. Do you have any numbers about them?

It wouldn't help to do even 200k if they would do 250K.


Here are the profiles that are up in SVN for SimC right now. I don't have mine in there yet because there's a pretty nasty bug that causes SimC to crash if you try to use 2p T15 -- you have to explicitly state "tier15_2pc_caster = 1" in the profile to get around it.


Code: Select all
Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T15H.simc
Death_Knight_Frost_2h_T15H.simc
Death_Knight_Unholy_T15H.simc
Druid_Balance_T15H.simc
Druid_Feral_T15H.simc
Druid_T15H.simc
Hunter_BM_T15H.simc
Hunter_MM_T15H.simc
Hunter_SV_T15H.simc
Monk_Windwalker_1h_T15H.simc
Monk_Windwalker_2h_T15H.simc
Raid_T15H.simc
Rogue_Assassination_T15H.simc
Rogue_Combat_T15H.simc
Rogue_Subtlety_T15H.simc
Shaman_Enhancement_T15H.simc
Warlock_Affliction_T15H.simc
Warlock_Demonology_T15H.simc
Warlock_Destruction_T15H.simc
Warlock_T15H.simc
Warrior_Arms_T15H.simc
Warrior_Fury_1h_T15H.simc
Warrior_Fury_2h_T15H.simc
Warrior_Protection_T15H.simc
Warrior_T15H.simc



Profiles included: DK (all DPS), Druid (Boomkin + Kitty), Hunter (all), Monk (DPS) Rogue, Shaman (Enhance), Warlock (all), and Warrior (all) are accounted for right now with some sort of profile.

Missing profiles: DK (Blood), Druid (Resto + Guardian), Monk (Mistweaver + Brewmaster), Paladin (all), Priest (all), and Shaman (Ele + Resto).


For Priest, as I've said I have T15H Shadow done but not committed and will do a HolyDPS as well. The Priest healing model is in need of serious updates and hasn't been touched since MoP beta.


I can run comparisons on those profiles already included to get a better idea of where we stand.


EDIT: WW Monk profiles got added.
EDIT2: Hunter profiles got added.
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Re: PTR dps

Postby Twintop » 22 Feb 2013, 18:11

Sim's done. 1-target Patchwerk for all of the profiles included thus far:

Image

Link to the full results file.

I'd like to remind everyone that this is with my first pass at a profile and it hasn't been tuned with reforging or anything yet. Still, we're near the bottom of a the pack (and lots of other classes have missing profiles).


EDIT: As an FYI, Swapping out Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen for Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance increases DPS to 172929.
EDIT2: Reran this with some other changes and fixing a bug. You might need to do a hard-refresh to see the updated image.
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Re: PTR dps

Postby Rubine » 22 Feb 2013, 19:39

Ouch.
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Re: PTR dps

Postby Ariadne » 22 Feb 2013, 20:13

I agree with Blizzard and their nerfs. If their philosophy is to balance both PvE and PvP, these are reasonable nerfs. Why they buffed Mind Blast or PI the way they did in the first place I don't know.

People seem to not understand how strong we are in PvP. Many priests seem to believe we are strong because we play with Frost Mages and that they are "carrying" us. That was months ago, before Mages got nerfed. Shadow is basically the strongest caster right now. We work with extremely well with Warrior, Rogue, Mage and Feral Druid.

Buffing Mind Blast was a PvP concern and PI would have been a very attractive choice for PvP if it had 10% damage increase. It was already taken by some Shadow Priests for the good burst and extra GCDs during burst windows.

In PvP right now, everything is about burst and forcing cooldowns. Now, Shadow Priest work very well with about any other class because we can burst on demand. The other class just has to pop his shit and you will follow. This is the strength of Shadow. Example: Rogue Shadowsteps to healer with Dance and Cheap Shot. Shadow Priest just throws his DP into a Silence. The opposite doesn't work.

And we aren't playing Cataclysm anymore. Sitting on a Shadow Priest in the current state of PvP doesn't really do much and you are probably goign to lose if you are, of course it depends on your comp. And we are hard to burst down due to PWS, Dispersion, Life Swap and Phantasm.

I also don't agree with reverting DP. The thing is, just because you spread the damage out over the entire DP duration doesn't make it weak in PvP. Dispelling DP would still be extremely difficult. DP lasts, what, 6 seconds? If you ever played arena this season, you know that you don't throw your DPs without having the healer/dispeller in a CC. Be it Silence, Fear or Disarm. Those last long enough for your DP to tick for its duration. The only thing I see that is a nerf to PvP is that it gives the enemies time to react.

Blackmorgrim wrote:Basically, if the presence of a shadowpriest significantly increases the odds of any two other classes being successful, then fine, its definitely shadow.


This is the case.
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Re: PTR dps

Postby aica » 22 Feb 2013, 21:02

So, what they should have done is buffed MB by 20% and spread DP's damage out evenly. Sustained damage increase, while 'burst' is kept roughly the same.

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Re: PTR dps

Postby Blackmorgrim » 22 Feb 2013, 21:45

Ariadne wrote:I agree with Blizzard and their nerfs. If their philosophy is to balance both PvE and PvP, these are reasonable nerfs. Why they buffed Mind Blast or PI the way they did in the first place I don't know.

People seem to not understand how strong we are in PvP. Many priests seem to believe we are strong because we play with Frost Mages and that they are "carrying" us. That was months ago, before Mages got nerfed. Shadow is basically the strongest caster right now. We work with extremely well with Warrior, Rogue, Mage and Feral Druid.

Buffing Mind Blast was a PvP concern and PI would have been a very attractive choice for PvP if it had 10% damage increase. It was already taken by some Shadow Priests for the good burst and extra GCDs during burst windows.

In PvP right now, everything is about burst and forcing cooldowns. Now, Shadow Priest work very well with about any other class because we can burst on demand. The other class just has to pop his shit and you will follow. This is the strength of Shadow. Example: Rogue Shadowsteps to healer with Dance and Cheap Shot. Shadow Priest just throws his DP into a Silence. The opposite doesn't work.

And we aren't playing Cataclysm anymore. Sitting on a Shadow Priest in the current state of PvP doesn't really do much and you are probably goign to lose if you are, of course it depends on your comp. And we are hard to burst down due to PWS, Dispersion, Life Swap and Phantasm.

I also don't agree with reverting DP. The thing is, just because you spread the damage out over the entire DP duration doesn't make it weak in PvP. Dispelling DP would still be extremely difficult. DP lasts, what, 6 seconds? If you ever played arena this season, you know that you don't throw your DPs without having the healer/dispeller in a CC. Be it Silence, Fear or Disarm. Those last long enough for your DP to tick for its duration. The only thing I see that is a nerf to PvP is that it gives the enemies time to react.

Blackmorgrim wrote:Basically, if the presence of a shadowpriest significantly increases the odds of any two other classes being successful, then fine, its definitely shadow.


This is the case.


Hmmm, thanks for that perspective. So, I guess when it comes to FDCL... that's more or less bonus burst, but the real power comes from on demand burst from MB+DP+SW:D accompanied with a well placed silence or psychic horror?

I assume I'm correct in the way PI is used by placing more dots up than can be dispelled, placing extreme pressure on a team's healer or forcing arena partners to use cooldowns like pally bubbles or cloak of shadows.

So I guess what you're saying is that in general, they need to shift more of our damage to SWP, VT, and Mindflay? Rather than DP or MB?

Perhaps reverse the way DP does damage? The instant damage and the first 5 ticks are small, with the last tick being the big damage? Perhaps swap Shadowfiend and DP. The shadowfiend as on demand burst could at least be CC'ed and stopped cold. DP could still be a powerful cooldown, but it would be on a 3 minute (or 1 minute?) timer.

But even with your perspective I do feel even with the classes you mention, there's things they bring to the table. Now, I'd assume Shadow must have some weaknesses, otherwise I'd assume 3 shadowpriest comps would be a regular thing. There's something there that other classes bring to the table. DP isn't the first spell to act as it does, if anything, its almost a copy of the old warlock conflag.

There's a perfect storm of interaction... as Spriests aren't 1 shotting people with MB and DP, although together that is a lot of burst especially with trinket cooldowns. Normally the answer would be to train the priest. But if you can't train the priest, that means there's something preventing you from controlling the field to allow you to get to the priest. Between dispersion and life swap... I realize a priest has survivability, but classes have tons of CC, many of which aren't even on the same DR... I find it hard to believe a coordinated team can't take one shadowpriest down. Is perhaps a portion of the problem that classes supporting the shadowpriest are hard to control?

If its just DP as the root that makes shadow so OP... perhaps the solution is to just revert back to cata and spread DP's damage across 18 seconds or 24 seconds.

Would removing the fade glyph (if you're not referring to the live fade, which I agree is pretty darn powerful in arena, though almost needed in the column free areas of the outside world), or perhaps the glyph of dark binding take away enough from the table, that survivability would drop enough? How about removing mass dispel from the shadowpriest toolkit?

Again, I still think the root of the problem is something that we unfortunately may have to deal with for now. The fact that CC is too binary, given out in excess, and too chainable... all CC just basically shuts down your ability to do anything.

Adding in a trinket or an ability that lets you shield yourself from burst attack, even on a 2 minute or 3 minute cooldown, while being CC'ed would be gamechanging.

In addition to that, because priests have on demand burst, they're the best classes to deal with all the other classes with invincibility moves, as anytime DP misses you don't spend any shadow orbs. (I'd figure changing that one aspect would probably have some pretty big consequences in PVP)

Though thanks for your input, you're the first PVPer to really explain how you see shadow as OP in pvp, and given me insight that I hadn't really considered.
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Re: PTR dps

Postby Twintop » 23 Feb 2013, 02:42

FYI, I tweaked the profile a little (trinket change plus some reforges) bit and caught a bug on my local source that was reducing the value of Mind Blast. These changes put us at ~175.8k, moving us up two spots from the last run. I've updated the images and URL linked above to avoid any confusion.

Also, all of my changes are in SimC's SVN, so whenever 5.1.0-11 (or 5.2.0-1) gets released this profile will be part of it. I will say, though, that through my testing, getting to the 10437 Haste Breakpoint (VT+4 w/LMG or BL) makes a huge difference, and Crit > Mastery (though it is fairly close).

Still working on a T15N profile and HolyDPS profiles, plus all the usual sims.


EDIT: OK, this is too good to pass up posting before bed (yes, burning the midnight...1am...2am...3am oil on this). Here we are with a 2-Target Patchwerk Sim:

Image

Link to the full results file.

Quite the leap up the totempole...
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Re: PTR dps

Postby Uglyshade » 23 Feb 2013, 05:36

205k dps?! for real? How can there be a 30k difference? And what trinkets/talent was there?:O

///Never mind, but is it really with the latest build? I sincerely doubt that we are at that level?

// I don't think the sim is correct at all for other classes, locks still have their 5.1 trinkets(cosmos and terror). I don't think they will be keeping them?
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