Simcrafting Theralion's Mirror 4.2 Simcraft

[Kilee]

Looking over the logs, the altered action list casts perhaps one less mind blast (total), in trade for having a slightly better up-time on dots. If we can call this "significant", then we can draw a conclusion that casting more direct target spells drives the value of hit upwards, and casting more dots drives the value of hit downwards. Also the portion of DPS that each of these spells contributes affects hit as well. So prior to 4.2 when most of our damage was coming from dots, hit was generally lower. Now that more of our damage is coming from MB (with both the changes in spells and acquiring tier 12 4-piece), it's driving our hit upwards.

That would be my explanation for higher hit. In relation to the action list, the new "default" action list is placing Mind Blast on a higher priority than dots, so it's probably casting one more Mind Blast than the previous action list. I think that might explain hit going up in value moreso than the change/fix to ES.

As far as up-time goes, I'm seeing about a 94% up time no as opposed to 99% previously. I think this accounts for the lower value of mastery (ie simming closer to crit, or lower than crit, than previously).

[Kilee]

I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I think I have figured out why the default action list has higher hit rating than my modified action list.

The default action list is picking a small, arbitrary time frame to refresh dots.

For example if we see DP ticking:

|-----|-----|

The default action list says to only refresh within this window of time:

|-----|-----|

My modified action list says to refresh here:

|-----|-----|

There is a bigger window to refresh. Theoretically this shouldn't change DPS any, but I'm assuming the 30-60 DPS difference bewteen the two action lists is basically just some small variation in the casting order. Either the sim gets an extra MB off, or it catches a proc at the last moment.

Anyway, if we assume that we may miss one of these spells, in the default action list, we have a 'miss react' qualifire, which means if it misses in that tiny last fraction of a secont, there's going to be a GCD worth of down time before the spell gets re-applied. In my action list, if it misses in that 3 second window between dots, it has a full GCD to re-apply the dot, and there's almost no down-time.

So my theory is that how late you refresh the spell in the action list has an affect on what hit rating turns out to be. Refreshing earlier (but missing) results in less down-time, so it ultmately doesn't hurt as poorly as if you try to "thread the needle" and refresh right at the very end.

In order to test my theory I tried narrowing the window of refresh opportunity even more on the default action list, and hit never changed. If I reverse and start adding time to the refresh, hit starts to go down. Also, DPS fluctuates in and around these refresh periods. My theory for why the person who wrote the action list made the changes was that they experimented with a few "sweet spots" and found the perfect refresh point at the end of each dot.

Anyway, I found this interesting. Looking forward to any feedback.

[Kilee]

I am about a 10th of the way through making new graphs of our stat weights as they change throughout gear progression. I'm still seeing the same plateaus and the same behavior for haste as previously. Haste still dips below the other stats just after 1602, and remains that way until 2589 (without DI). So doesn't really look like anything has changed... I was expecting to see some phenomenon where lower values of haste produced ES droughts, but aside from the very start of the fight, it's still keeping ES up about the same percentage as before.

I am both relieved and saddened at the same time. Relieved because there's basically nothing that I need to change in the guide. Saddened because I was expecting a bigger revelation of some sort... aside from some of the minor changes Twintop observed, our stats are basically still behaving the same.

[Brusalk]

I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I think I have figured out why the default action list has higher hit rating than my modified action list.

The default action list is picking a small, arbitrary time frame to refresh dots.

For example if we see DP ticking:

|-----|-----|

The default action list says to only refresh within this window of time:

|-----|-----|

My modified action list says to refresh here:

|-----|-----|

There is a bigger window to refresh. Theoretically this shouldn't change DPS any, but I'm assuming the 30-60 DPS difference bewteen the two action lists is basically just some small variation in the casting order. Either the sim gets an extra MB off, or it catches a proc at the last moment.

Anyway, if we assume that we may miss one of these spells, in the default action list, we have a 'miss react' qualifire, which means if it misses in that tiny last fraction of a secont, there's going to be a GCD worth of down time before the spell gets re-applied. In my action list, if it misses in that 3 second window between dots, it has a full GCD to re-apply the dot, and there's almost no down-time.

So my theory is that how late you refresh the spell in the action list has an affect on what hit rating turns out to be. Refreshing earlier (but missing) results in less down-time, so it ultmately doesn't hurt as poorly as if you try to "thread the needle" and refresh right at the very end.

In order to test my theory I tried narrowing the window of refresh opportunity even more on the default action list, and hit never changed. If I reverse and start adding time to the refresh, hit starts to go down. Also, DPS fluctuates in and around these refresh periods. My theory for why the person who wrote the action list made the changes was that they experimented with a few "sweet spots" and found the perfect refresh point at the end of each dot.

Anyway, I found this interesting. Looking forward to any feedback.

Hmm, that is interesting. Did you find a point in time where it was optimal, or just in general that earlier reduces the value of hit?

I remember seeing in a thread a few days ago something about refreshing Devouring Plague before it's second to last tick, and someone (I believe you were in the discussion Kilee) said it produced higher DPS to refresh it earlier than after the second to last tick due to the mechanics of how IMP DP worked. I was under the impression that when you got an extra tick of DP that IMP DP's damage went up, but am I wrong? Have you tried simming to see if refreshing DP more often than necessary might increase dps and drive the value of hit down even further? (As you would have a lot more time to react, in the event that it misses)

[Kilee]

Hm..

Well I've seen DPS increase refreshing DP as often as every 16 seconds. I cannot say whether or not it is reliable or that it always works.... you also have to be careful where you put it in the priority list. It has to come before Mind Flay, but not before anything else.

IDP doesn't increase at the same rate that DP gets extra ticks. They are on seperate haste scale points. DP is affected by haste talents and buffs, but IDP is not. So getting ane xtra tick of DP, as far as I know does not translate into extra damage.... as far as I know... I was thinking perhaps because the dot extends, the total damage increases so perhaps IDP gets a small bonus... I am not sure it works that way though...

[Brusalk]

Does IDPs damage increase linearly? It could be that it increases based off of getting an extra tick without factoring in haste buffs. (IE, you'd have to get enough haste to get an extra tick without 5% haste and other buffs like darkness. (I guess that'd be slightly more than 8%)

[Blackmorgrim]

Nope, Imp DP's damage is in no way related to the total damage of the DoT. It scales independantly according to the haste value due to haste rating only.

Its formula of scaling is really odd, especially due to the way it rounds.

The way Imp DP calculates the number of ticks of damage looks like (8+ROUNDUP(<Haste Rating % value>/12.5)) So effectively, yes it gains damage every 12.5% haste, like DP does after the first tick... minus haste modifiers. But because it rounds differently than ticks it behaves kind of odd.

It does 30% of X ticks at these values of haste:

X...........Haste Rating (Imp DP, DP)
8...........0,n/a
9...........1,0
10..........1601,1257
11..........3202,2737
12..........4803,4216 (might be off on the last digit, but we won't see it in this expansion)

Since we normally cast DP much more often than its full duration (refreshing with any significant buff), we rarely see any benefit from gaining a tick on the DoT. However, if you were a shadowpriest that refreshed DP at the last moment all the time, you'd actually see a DPS loss just after gaining a tick, because you're casting a smaller IDP less often. 'Smaller' referring to the fact the DoT will always gain a tick long before IDP gains a tick's worth of damage.

At 7855 spellpower, and 1256 haste rating, 231 crit rating, and 772 Mastery (non goblin, no DI, values minus the haste are from an old set of mine)

You'll do 3102.999 damage every 2.526 secs from the DoT. (1228.424 DPS)
And 8385.307 Average Damage from IDP every 22.737 seconds. (368.796 DPS)

Gain 1 more haste rating (1257) and DP gains a tick.
You'll do 3102.999 damage every 2.526 secs from the DoT. (1228.424 DPS)
And 8385.307 Average Damage from IDP every 25.262 seconds. (331.934 DPS)

So overall, you lose almost 37 DPS. (Also, its not that the tick duration isn't changing with haste rating gains, but the effect isn't noticeable til the 4th decimal place)


Hmmm... that's interesting... (Since 1255 is such a low haste level, I never really went to look back at it) But apparently, Imp DP does not have a higher DPET than Mindflay until 1601 haste rating. While my example shows where a DPS loss comes from, honestly at that haste level you'd actually gain DPS by waiting to cast DP til the last minute, as you'd gain DPS for the extra mindflay.

The DPS loss will certainly be true at 2737 haste rating as well, when DP gains its 11th tick.

[Taradenha]

@Blackmorgrim
You forgot the GCD you gain when you get that extra tick in your model.
That will make that haste point a DPS increase, as expected.

Edit: Actually the gain is 2 GCD.

[Revulva]

My stat weight analysis using the latest test version of SimC is now available:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/specs/priestshadow

Regarding IDP, the damage on IDP is only related to Haste insofar as Haste reduces the length of the GCD for casting the spell. The total damage a Dot does is not changed by haste, only the damage per second. IDP only scales off the total damage of the DoT.

As Blackmorgrim pointed out, when you get that "extra tick" you refresh less often, which will cause less IDP uses. The DPS of it does not jump at all, though. Taradenha pointed out that you can do something else with the extra GCDs you gain by refreshing less. Tests have shown that you observe a slight bump in overall DPS at the haste thresholds of DoTs because of these couple of saved GCDs. Theoretically, IDP will do a very slightly smaller portion of your overall damage just at or above a haste threshold (because you use it less often), but the DPET of IDP does not jump because of the extra ticks, the DPET of IDP scales linearly with Haste as the GCD time decreases.

[Schisme]

My stat weight analysis using the latest test version of SimC is now available:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/specs/priestshadow

Regarding IDP, the damage on IDP is only related to Haste insofar as Haste reduces the length of the GCD for casting the spell. The total damage a Dot does is not changed by haste, only the damage per second. IDP only scales off the total damage of the DoT.

As Blackmorgrim pointed out, when you get that "extra tick" you refresh less often, which will cause less IDP uses. The DPS of it does not jump at all, though. Taradenha pointed out that you can do something else with the extra GCDs you gain by refreshing less. Tests have shown that you observe a slight bump in overall DPS at the haste thresholds of DoTs because of these couple of saved GCDs. Theoretically, IDP will do a very slightly smaller portion of your overall damage just at or above a haste threshold (because you use it less often), but the DPET of IDP does not jump because of the extra ticks, the DPET of IDP scales linearly with Haste as the GCD time decreases.

You're nearly 100% correct, but it seems you're neglecting to consider the IDP spam while moving in just about every fight in 4.2, 4.0, and every other raid content since Naxxramas :P. I would argue that I rarely refresh my DP while turreting, it's usually already refreshed from me spamming it while on the move causing a fairly moderate DPS increase.

I'm not sure if this will be factored very well into sims since how are you supposed to guess how many times you will get pounced in domo, traps on shannox, etc... Just keep in mind that while sims are a good guide, we also have to consider the relevant content outside of the simcraft box and compare that to how well we think simcraft is representing that content. We may find that we are overvaluing or undervaluing one of our particular mechanics as Shadow Priests.

I'm sure most of you have already considered this, but I thought it was worthwhile to mention for those that haven.t