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Extended DoTs and Procs

Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Pancakes » 24 May 2013, 01:57

Hello, I'm Pancakes, and I've relied on these forums ever since the old shadowpriest.com for information and advice on how to play Shadow. Now I would like to give back.

This is my first time trying to math out some theorycraft, so any assistance in pointing out errors would be great!

With the t15 2pc bonus making it possible to have Very Extended DoTs (VEDs), and with the LMG being a significant increase to our DPS when used correctly, I hope these calculations will help determine when we should be refreshing DoTs with haste procs up.

Skip to the second post for the summarized version.

Now for the math:
Assuming 14846 Haste Rating (SWP +3, or 41.68%) and 30k Spellpower as BASELINE IN SHADOWFORM,

Shadow Word: Pain will tick 9 times per cast, at 11,766 Damage/tick
and
Vampiric Touch will tick 7 times per cast, at 13,362 Damage/tick
and
Mind Flay will tick once every 0.71s for 6,049 Damage/tick
and
The GCD is 1.06s
--------
AT BASELINE (41.68% Haste):
SWP - 9 Ticks (2s Intervals) for [105,894 + 11,766 Damage total] <111,000 DPET>
VT - 7 Ticks (2.12s Intervals) for [93,534 Damage total]
<88,239 DPET>
MF - 2.12s Duration (0.71s Intervals) for [18,147 Damage total]
<8,560 DPET>

-------- From here on out we'll be at the GCD cap
WITH POWER INFUSION (70.02% Haste):
SWP - 10 Ticks (1.76s Intervals) for [123,540 + 12,354 Damage]
<135,894 DPET>
VT - 9 Ticks (1.76s Intervals) for [126,270 Damage] *NOTE:VT+4 actually requires 2 more haste rating than the assumed baseline*
<126,270 DPET>
MF - 1.76s Duration (0.59s Intervals) for [19,054 Damage]
<10,826 DPET>

--------
WITH LMG/HEROLUST (84.18% Haste):
SWP - 11 Ticks (1.63s Intervals) for [129,426 + 11,766 Damage]
<141,192 DPET>
VT - 9 Ticks (1.63s Intervals) for [120,258 Damage]
<120,258 DPET>
MF - 1.63s Duration (0.54s Intervals) for [18,143 Damage]
<11,130 DPET>

--------
WITH LMG/HEROLUST + POWER INFUSION (121.02% Haste):
SWP - 13 Ticks (1.36s Intervals) for [160,602 + 12,354 Damage]
<172,956 DPET>
VT - 11 Ticks (1.36s Intervals) for [154,330 Damage]
<154,330 DPET>
MF - 1.36s Duration (0.45s Intervals) for [19,054 Damage]
<14,010 DPET>

-------
WITH LMG + HEROLUST (139.44% Haste):
SWP - 14 Ticks (1.25s Intervals) for [164,724 + 11,766 Damage]
<176,490 DPET>
VT - 12 Ticks (1.25s Intervals) for [160,344 Damage]
<160,344 DPET>
MF - 1.25s Duration (0.42s Intervals) for [18,143 Damage]
<14,514 DPET>

-------
WITH LMG + HEROLUST + POWER INFUSION (187.33% Haste):
SWP - 17 Ticks (1.04s Intervals) for [210,018 + 12,354 Damage]
<222,372 DPET>
VT - 14 Ticks (1.04s Intervals) for [196,420 Damage]
<196,420 DPET>
MF - 1.04s Duration [19,054 Damage] *NOTE: With a 1.04s duration the intervals really don't matter anymore*
<18,321 DPET>

-------

Since t15 2pc Extentions use baseline stats, I will assume that every 2.12s(a single DoT extention), VT+SWP will deal [25,128 Damage]

For MF to be worth using over a DoT refresh during a proc, it needs to do more damage over a given window than the DPET of a boosted VT+SWP.

The formula I will be using to calculate how much damage Boosted MF + Baseline VT+SWP can do over a 2.12s window will be:
(#of MF ticks obtainable)*(Damage per tick) + (base damage of a VT tick) + (base damage of an SWP tick)
*NOTE: I know it's impossible to get a fraction of an MF tick, but assuming latency/player reaction times it's more than likely that ticks may get clipped early/late resulting in similar enough numbers to the estimated amount of MF ticks you can get in a 2.12s window*

-------
WITH POWER INFUSION:
Boosted Mind Flay + baselineVT+SWP needs to do [262,164 damage] (DPET of boosted VT+SWP added together)

Every 2.12s, MF(boosted)+VT(base)+SWP(base) will deal
3.6*(6351) + 25,128 = [47,991 damage].

You will need
2(so that one tick remains) + 2.12*(262,164/44,182) = <13.58s> left on VT/SWP before Mind Flaying becomes worthwhile

-------
WITH LMG/HEROLUST:
Needs to do [261,450 damage]

Every 2.12s will deal 3.9*(6049) + 25,128 = [48,719 damage]

Will need 2 + 2.12(261,450/48,719) = <13.38s>

-------
WITH LMG/HEROLUST + POWER INFUSION:
Needs to do [327,286 damage]

Every 2.12s will deal 4.7*(6351) + 25,128 = [54,977 damage]

Will need 2 + 2.12(327,286/54,977) = <14.62s>

-------
WITH LMG + HEROLUST:
Needs to do [336,834 damage]

Every 2.12s will deal 5(6049) + 25,128 = [55,373 damage]

Will need 2 + 2.12(336,834/55,373) = <14.9s>

-------
WITH LMG + HEROLUST + PI:
Needs to do [418,792 damage]

Every 2.12s will deal 2(19054) + 25,128 = [63,236 damage]

Will need 2 + 2.12(418,792/63,236) = <16s>
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Pancakes » 24 May 2013, 02:00

SUMMARY! (Do note that these numbers are for incredibly specific haste/spellpower values, so just treat them as estimates in practice)

With PI, only refresh dots with under <13.58s> left

With Herolust, only refresh dots with under <13.38s> left

With LMG/Herolust + PI, only refresh dots with under <14.62s> left

With LMG + Herolust, only refresh dots with under <14.9s> left

With LMG + Herolust + PI, only refresh dots with under <16s> left.

Generally, the larger the proc, the sooner you'll want to refresh the DoTs. But if you somehow get a 30+ second DoT via lucky streaks (or funky things like primordius) you probably want to just sit on it and flay away.
------------------------------------------------------------------

FURTHER NOTES (IMPORTANT STUFF)

THIS IS ASSUMING THE SWP +3 BREAKPOINT, WHICH NOT MANY SHADOWPRIESTS WILL HIT BEFORE t16.

If you have less haste you'll most likely want to refresh your DoTs earlier than what I have calculated in this post.

If you have DP/MFI up during a proc window you should delay the refresh by half the estimated time, as MFI will be doing double the calculated damage, in addition to a boosted DP hitting harder, and in addition to the fact that you might still be able to get the refresh off after you're done channeling MFI but before the buff falls off.

SPECIAL NOTE ABOUT THE LMG - Since it only has a 10s duration, there is no way you will get sufficient hasted mindflays off(barring some crazy back-to-back procs) to compensate for not having boosted DoTs, so just refresh DoTs during the LMG.

SPECIAL NOTE ABOUT THE UVLS - You totally want to refresh DoTs during this proc, totally. (You can think of any DoT refreshed during the UVLS proc to have an additional 65% duration, plus ghostfart damage, plus all that extra crit damage)


Well that concludes my attempt at theorycrafting. I hope it was accurate and helpful.

-Potential To Do List- (If anyone better at this wants to help please do!)
1)See how spellpower/int procs affect these interactions
2)Include Berserking calculations even though I'm not a troll =(
3)Work out Goblins and their 1% passive haste
4)Account for shadow app procs? (Hasted DoTs would have a higher chance of proccing them; Should shadow app damage be included in DoT damage?)
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Kathor » 24 May 2013, 03:33

Interesting reading, thanks for doing the math!

After my first raid with non-bugged tier bonus, I realised how I dislike the 2 piece bonus because of whenever you refresh your dots because of procs, the bonus is worth exactly nothing. Without having the data to back this statement up, it feels like I am refreshing a considerable amount of dots per fight* (and simple napkin math tells me that if I refresh 40% of my dots for procs during its initial duration then the tier-bonus is worthless 40% of the encounter). In my opinion, a major design-flaw for a dot-based class. It also feels wonky to see a lucky proc-streak, but you know that the procs are useless (for your dots) because you have also had a lucky streak with the tier bonus that you do not want to lose :(

A solution could be to keep track of the extended time portion of the dot, and add this to reapplications of it as well. Not sure if that is technically viable though. And it will probably introduce other issues that I do not currently see.

*) I use AffDots to refresh dots when a reapplication is a ~20% gain, and the dot has more than ~8 seconds left. There is no mathematics behind this, but I would love to hear if someone has a more accurate formula for this (gain per tick vs time left)
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Pancakes » 24 May 2013, 04:21

Kathor wrote:After my first raid with non-bugged tier bonus, I realised how I dislike the 2 piece bonus because of whenever you refresh your dots because of procs, the bonus is worth exactly nothing.


I woulden't say it's nothing, because any refresh for a haste/crit(and to a smaller extent, int) proc potentially gives you more shadowapps and more extentions. The 2pc bonus can also be fully utilized during proc droughts, and I absolutely love it on anything with more than one target.

Another thing which I find the 2pc useful for is tiny extentions during a period where I would be spamming MF/MFI or during hectic execute phases where squeezing in every MB/SWDeath would mean that VT would sometimes fall off. IMO it's doing what a set bonus should do, being a decent-ish DPS gain while also changing your rotation a little, to keep things interesting.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Charuo » 24 May 2013, 05:53

Pancakes wrote:Since t15 2pc Extentions use baseline stats



Can you back this up? Pretty much everything else I have read says that it keeps the original snapshotted values for everything BUT haste, and uses your current haste value for the extended dot.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Sheitan » 24 May 2013, 09:49

This is pretty in line with what I found just looking at all procs as an increase % in damage (such as what we see with affdots spriest or SPDT). Thank you for looking into the GCD caps involved!
Charuo wrote:
Pancakes wrote:Since t15 2pc Extentions use baseline stats

Can you back this up? Pretty much everything else I have read says that it keeps the original snapshotted values for everything BUT haste, and uses your current haste value for the extended dot.

Where have you been reading that? It's not what I found to be the case on the PTR, but I haven't had a chance to check on live yet. I haven't gone through logs enough to know exactly how it's acting, but it's certainly not just keeping the snapshotted values except haste for the entire extension. The damage values are changing a good bit with jade spirit, synapse springs and breath trinket procs coming and going.
Last edited by Sheitan on 24 May 2013, 11:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Charuo » 24 May 2013, 10:36

Actually from a post you made sheitan, using some of your logs. These logs are from the test server around May 13:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3397&start=190#p33075

These are relevant snippets (I think). I've cut a lot out to try to to highlight what I'm saying. I hope I haven't cut out too much or missed something important.
Code: Select all
[14:48:19.810] Sheyten casts Power Infusion
[14:48:31.968] Sheyten gains Jade Spirit from Unknown
[14:48:31.968] Sheyten gains Tempus Repit from Unknown
[14:48:31.968] Sheyten gains Breath of Many Minds from Sheyten
[14:48:31.968] Sheyten gains Perfect Aim from Sheyten

[14:48:33.573] Sheyten casts Shadow Word: Pain on Raider's Training Dummy  <--original SW:P ticks for *34912* (17198 non-crit assuming 3% crit gem) with 2 INT buffs (Jade Spirit and Breath of Many Minds)

[14:48:35.982] Sheyten's Perfect Aim fades from Sheyten
[14:48:39.733] Sheyten's Power Infusion fades from Sheyten
[14:48:48.805] Unknown's Jade Spirit fades from Sheyten
[14:48:49.247] Unknown's Tempus Repit fades from Sheyten


These are the last 3 ticks of SW:P, and according to your post, were procced from SA hits. The two crits tick before and after Jade Spirit fading, which I think shows that their SP snapshot MUST have been taken when the SA hit (eg: before jade spirit faded):
Code: Select all
[14:48:48.660] Sheyten Shadow Word: Pain Raider's Training Dummy *34912*
[14:48:50.060] Sheyten Shadow Word: Pain Raider's Training Dummy *34911*
[14:48:50.511] Shadowy Apparition Shadowy Apparition Raider's Training Dummy 19941
[14:48:51.428] Sheyten Shadow Word: Pain Raider's Training Dummy 15927

The first two hit for the same as your original SW:P, which is definitely not your base stats. The third one is slightly lower, and seems like it correlates to that last SA that hit after jade spirit faded (but I can't make the math work). Regardless, your first 2 extra ticks definitely hit the same as your fully buffed stats.

This also kind of explains your surprise in the original post that they all hit 1.4s interval. They were snapshotted with your haste buffs still active. (but again, I have trouble making the math work for the tick interval on that last tick)

[14:48:51.952] Sheyten's Breath of Many Minds fades from Sheyten


Edit: read your comment here again.

All I've seen during raiding is that after the lock it seems to update dots with your current stats, but that could be an issue with affdots spriest.


This is actually what I'm saying too, so I think we agree. Baseline stats != current stats though, which is why I was questioning the OP.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Sheitan » 24 May 2013, 11:04

Oh, yeah. But current stats != snapshotted stats, either. It *seems* like it extends the snapshotted stats during the 18 second window, but with enough SA procs it can be extended well beyond that window, and affdots priest was showing SA procs dynamically update dots with several minute durations. It's hard to reproduce those situations on dummies and time-consuming to pour through logs on horridon to find those times :(
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Charuo » 24 May 2013, 11:41

right you are. Just re-read what I first wrote, and it's not right at all. Don't know what I was thinking.

Pancakes, the conclusion here is that 'Since t15 2pc Extentions use baseline stats, I will assume that every 2.12s(a single DoT extention), VT+SWP will deal [25,128 Damage]' isn't correct. This is actually the worst case for the dot extensions. More likely in the case of VED, there will be a mix of dots with your baseline stats, along with a bunch that have better stats snapshotted into them.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Kathor » 24 May 2013, 11:52

Pancakes wrote:
Kathor wrote:After my first raid with non-bugged tier bonus, I realised how I dislike the 2 piece bonus because of whenever you refresh your dots because of procs, the bonus is worth exactly nothing.


I woulden't say it's nothing, because any refresh for a haste/crit(and to a smaller extent, int) proc potentially gives you more shadowapps and more extentions. The 2pc bonus can also be fully utilized during proc droughts, and I absolutely love it on anything with more than one target.

Another thing which I find the 2pc useful for is tiny extentions during a period where I would be spamming MF/MFI or during hectic execute phases where squeezing in every MB/SWDeath would mean that VT would sometimes fall off. IMO it's doing what a set bonus should do, being a decent-ish DPS gain while also changing your rotation a little, to keep things interesting.


I am not saying that it is utterly useless, and I love those moments when extended dots let me focus on the high DPS rotation during MFI, heroism, execution phase etc.

However, is it not correct to state that whenever you refresh your dots because of procs during the original dot duration, then any dot extensions made until that moment is worthless? Since the actual gain from the bonus only occurs after the initial duration has passed.

If you disregard all procs and only refresh your dots when they are about to expire, then the value of the tier bonus goes up. If you master your class and refresh the dots when you have strong procs, then the value of the tier bonus drops. It should have been the other way around :(

My apologies if this semi-rant goes off-topic, maybe it should have been in a general thread about our set-bonus instead.
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