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Extended DoTs and Procs

Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Hunger » 24 May 2013, 11:59

Thanks Pancakes for providing the data. I couldn't help but make a spreadsheet.

Here is my current work: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... McGc#gid=0

Please ask questions if you don't understand my work or terminology.

I could be wrong so please draw your own conclusions, but from what the spreadsheet is telling me it may be worth it to spam MF under lust (*only*) if your dots are longer than 24/20 seconds.

However, I don think it's possible to be under the effect of *lust only*. Surely something else is going to proc / be available during lust.


edit: the conclusion I drew turned out to be false. VEDs update via extensions in some way not yet detailed. I'll leave the spreadsheet alone for now, but it's not very useful as-is.
Last edited by Hunger on 24 May 2013, 15:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Sheitan » 24 May 2013, 12:45

From my Horridon kill this week:

SWP is cast on Horridon at 21:34:19.076. Lock expires around 21:34:37.076. I've filtered out all SA hits, but they're updating the dot pretty continually, though they might take a tick or two to do so. Is there a way to filter out another spriest's SAs? Anyway, this snippet happens over a minute after the SWP's hard cast lock ended:

[21:35:45.735] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 54641
[21:35:47.864] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 54641
[21:35:49.410] Sheytan afflicted by Sated from Sheytan
[21:35:50.156] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon *109282*
[21:35:52.309] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 54640
[21:35:52.309] Sheytan gains Potion of the Jade Serpent from Sheytan
[21:35:52.577] Sheytan gains Breath of Many Minds from Sheytan
[21:35:54.439] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 72803
[21:35:56.012] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon *174727*

The damage increase from the pot and megaera trinket is clear. You can also see that the bloodlust's haste is updated on the dot, as the tick interval goes from ~2.17s down to 1.57s.

SA procs outside of the lock on VEDs are updating the dots dynamically. Of course if you hard cast with them, they'll lock in with the buffs even longer, but this seems significant when refreshing long dots (30s+) to just spamming mind flay, since the dots really only gain a dot length amount of time of the buffs over leaving the dots alone, and then you could lose quite a few GCDs by overwriting a long dot.

Kathor wrote:If you disregard all procs and only refresh your dots when they are about to expire, then the value of the tier bonus goes up. If you master your class and refresh the dots when you have strong procs, then the value of the tier bonus drops. It should have been the other way around :(

While I agree to some extent, it's still a boost to DPS no matter what you do. Just because you're not maximizing the value of the set bonus doesn't mean you're not maximizing your DPS or that the set bonus is not increasing your DPS.
Last edited by Sheitan on 24 May 2013, 13:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Hunger » 24 May 2013, 13:19

That's such a small portion of the log though. I wish I hadn't deleted the log that I from yesterday.

I did a little experiment yesterday - it went like this.

-I casted SWP and VT at a dummy as my very first combat action so nothing was procd yet.
-The SWP and VT proced my lightweave , LMG , i used my engi glove proc, popd PI and berserking.
-SA hits during these effects made 1 dot tick for increased damage *BUT*
the dot continued to tick for baseline dmg outside of the SA dot extensions


This leads me to believe the dots are NOT updating. If you see dot ticks with increased damage , they are just from the SA extension.


edit: bad information
Last edited by Hunger on 24 May 2013, 15:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Alae » 24 May 2013, 13:32

are you sure it isnt a mastery proc?
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Charuo » 24 May 2013, 13:35

^ yeah. Extra dots should be added to the end of the dot duration, so if you see a hard hitting one in the middle, it is probably a mastery proc.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Alae » 24 May 2013, 14:24

http://pastebin.com/4wUt9HB3

38.78% haste

DOT: 34914 : - spell
damage: 19253 : - damage by spell
lstick: 1.66s : - tick period (horrible things coz of combat log)
tick number: 5 : - tick with haste
defaulttick: 0 - tick without haste

another log with high amount of procs

http://pastebin.com/sXfgtRkH

Affdots-for-debug-edition - http://db.tt/Br49MRmO -logs saved to World of Warcraft\WTF\Account\<Account_Name>\SavedVariables\AffDotsPriest.lua

need turn on [Debug Enable]
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Sheitan » 24 May 2013, 14:54

Hunger wrote:That's such a small portion of the log though.

I linked the entire fight in the first line of the post, but I used a named url tag because the link is pretty lengthy, since it includes expression editor lines. I only pasted a small section because that is where the point is illustrated.

There still seems to be some skepticism, so let's look further. Firstly, setting spellID = 589 and not just spell = "Shadow Word: Pain" filters out mastery procs, so it's pretty easy to tell when there are mastery procs or not. You can easily test this on your own with logs. In my spreadsheet, I can copy/paste logs and have a list of the tick intervals between all of them in about 10 seconds total. I've done this many times and found very consistent tick intervals every time using spellID = 589. Mastery procs would stick out noticeably.

As you can see by looking at the logs, there were no haste effects at the time of casting the dot. The expression I was using in that link had tempus repit filtered out, but if you add "or (spell = "Tempus Repit" and targetName = "Sheytan")" to the end of the expression editor, you'll also find this:

[21:34:36.717] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 47457
[21:34:38.807] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 47458
[21:34:40.964] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon *94915*
[21:34:43.347] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 47458
[21:34:45.285] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 56949
[21:34:47.426] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 56948
[21:34:49.603] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 56949
[21:34:51.681] Sheytan gains Tempus Repit from Unknown
[21:34:51.715] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 59797
[21:34:53.871] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 59796
[21:34:56.084] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon *119592*
[21:34:57.750] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 59796
[21:34:59.403] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 59797
[21:35:01.022] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 59796
[21:35:01.667] Unknown's Tempus Repit fades from Sheytan
[21:35:02.665] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 62837
[21:35:04.809] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon *125675*
[21:35:06.956] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 59845
[21:35:09.100] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon 59845
[21:35:11.283] Sheytan Shadow Word: Pain Horridon *119690*

Here SWP is clearly ticking for ~2.15s intervals until I gain Tempus Repit. A few ticks later (21:34:57.750) when an SA hit procs the 2pc, the haste effect is applied to the dot, and it begins to tick for ~1.65 intervals for 4 ticks. Tempus Repit fades, and the dot resumes the ~2.15s intervals after 4 ticks of being hasted with the LMG proc.

On the mastery proc issue, here are images of my sheet using spellID vs spell using the same section that I posted just above. I think you'll agree that it's easy to spot mastery procs and that using spellID filters them out:

spellID = 589: http://i.imgur.com/t0JS4o7.jpg
spell = "Shadow Word: Pain": http://i.imgur.com/ndB5yBQ.jpg

I welcome further discussion, but so far it seems abundantly clear that VEDs are being dynamically updated.
Last edited by Sheitan on 24 May 2013, 15:57, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Hunger » 24 May 2013, 15:39

Very interesting. 5 ticks is a odd number. It's less than the base number of SWP.

I definitely acknowledge the evidence suggests it does update VEDs. I will edit my previous post so no one gets confused.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Pancakes » 24 May 2013, 22:19

Hrm I might be wrong about my understanding of how the extra ticks are calculated, in which case it'd probably void the calculations I made in the opening post.

In the case that VEDs ARE being dynamically updated, that would free us up for even more Mind Flay as during a proc the remaining ticks on existing DoTs are probably fresh extensions.

I guess maybe we're better off just spamming MF during procs, and only refreshing at the very end of the proc (Instead of once at the beginning + once at the end) since the boosted extension ticks would be doing sort of the equivalent damage a hard refresh would have done.
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Re: Extended DoTs and Procs

Postby Sheitan » 25 May 2013, 10:26

Pancakes wrote:In the case that VEDs ARE being dynamically updated, that would free us up for even more Mind Flay as during a proc the remaining ticks on existing DoTs are probably fresh extensions.

UVLS is a special case because of how SWP scales with crit and the 2pc in particular. Right now, I'm thinking that, for VEDs, refreshing SWP for UVLS is worth it but that refreshing VT is not. I'm thinking that being able to stretch out that UVLS with MF like we do with DP and MF:I is going to be better than refreshing VT. What I'm seeing makes it seem better to not refresh VT for anything when it's beyond 30s.

I guess maybe we're better off just spamming MF during procs, and only refreshing at the very end of the proc (Instead of once at the beginning + once at the end) since the boosted extension ticks would be doing sort of the equivalent damage a hard refresh would have done.

Are you talking about all the time or just for VEDs here? If you're talking about all the time, remember that the dots have a locked 15/18s period after a hard cast. They won't be updated by buffs during that period, so it depends on the proc, really. For strong 20 second procs (breath/cha-ye), it's definitely good to refresh at the beginning and the end because they'll run their full duration and you aren't wasting much MF up time to do so. For 10 second procs it becomes more interesting, since you are using up several extra GCDs.

For these scenarios, it's more complicated because the number of buffed ticks you'll get in before refreshing them as the proc fades is important, and many of our procs these days are haste-oriented, and you want to know how many ticks will land before you refresh it again as the proc fades.

I've made a graph that contains rules for when to refresh both, but I'm wanting to look at the dots individually now in order to be far more accurate. It's more complicated for us, but better. In general, SWP is good to refresh for any strong procs (not jade spirit, etc) at the beginning and end. For VT, generally the VT should be under ~9 seconds left before you refresh it for just one proc of something like cha-ye, breath, etc (UVLS and under 30s? yes refresh it). The more procs you have lined up the sooner it's beneficial to refresh it early. I'll be making a post soon with graphs and stuff.
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