Shadow Rotation (Thoughts)

[Woaden]

So I've had a day or two to mess around since Veiled showed pity on me with a Beta Key give away. I have to say this new 'rotation' is uber crazy.

On one hand I like that there's so much damage we can put out on the move now. I'm really enjoying the ability to kite really strong. At the same time I feel like I'm playing a bit of whack-a-mole with my procs. I didn't think I would miss casting MF as much as I do, but I suppose after years of spamming it... and DP. Man, DP. It's great because it helps me miss old VE less but already having to spam MB and MS procs makes me dislike having to randomly throw my DoT somewhere in there too.

Now I am glad that MS is coming into our rotation as a second nuke of sorts with SoD. One of the big upsides to having both SoD and DI is that Multi-DoTing situations with a main target are going to be amazing for us. Keep VT and SW:P rolling on off targets and we won't be doing much but burning MB and MS procs :D

Speaking of: what's the deal with SW:P? Why did they decide to remove Pain and Suffering? I'm not casting MF all that much anymore that without P&S or Sin and Punishment it's feeling really lackluster in general. At least in Wrath / Cata it made up so much of our DPS you couldn't hate it all that much, but now...

What do you guys think?

[Kaesebrezen]

Why did they decide to remove Pain and Suffering?

The only reason for that mechanic (or SW:P was still in game with the mechanic) was to prevent other spells to deal to much damage.
It did add nothing to gameplay.

Also, shadowpriests always(minus classic) had 2 DoTs to manually upkeep. BC it was VT/SW:P, WotLK/Cata it was VT/DP, now it's back to BC with VT/SW:P.

The reason why you flay less, are FDCL and DI, not the missing Pain and Suffering. And at least FDCL is optional.

[Woaden]

I know WHY I'm casting it less. Thing is I'm casting it so little and now that there's no benefits to casting it (P&S, Sin and Punishment) and it doesn't make up very much of our damage model: it just feels like a really crappy spell atm.

[vampiroth]

Honestly, FDCL is crap compared to mind bender. When multidotting 4 targets you are either casting mind blast, dp, or refreshing dots so mind spike is use very little.

[Drye]

Honestly, FDCL is crap compared to mind bender.

Qft

[Soyzan]

On movement fights instant mind spikes works well. Mindspiking, making sure all MBs are also instants plus SW:Ps and DPs and finally Halo is awesome.

But with the new changes to SW:I, I hate either the spell or our rotation should SW:I be a dps boost. I have not tested it enough to really tell and deciding to use SW:I in the first place calls for a perfect execution with our rotation. I dislike everything regarding the spell mechanic it might prove to be a important spell for us in pve in theory, but in reality it'll make fights a headache to max dps on.
Atm SW:I gives 70-75k normal hits and 170k crits. But using it means you lose the dps from mind bender or instant MSs on movement fights and you lose a ton of GCDs to use SW:I itself and gcds to re-apply SW:P and SW:Ps ticks.
I say they need to head back to the drawing table and completely re-work SW:Insanity or buff it with a lot, which would make it a destroying on some fights and in PvP, which wouldnt work well at all.

Regarding our rotation my favorite rotation is;
DP3orbs - MB - SW:P - VT - instant Mind spikes but only use them as fillers when I cant fit in a full MF before MB or a dot needs refreshing or just before MB comes off cd and it's not instant, just to make sure it's at least haste boosted. - Obviously use Shadowfiend and Halo as the encounter allow us too in the best beneficial situations.

[Marathal]

I know its probably mostly just me, but I am not a fan of all these combo spells. Casting spells to get orbs up to cast DP, get SwP up and with a tick left to cast SwI. If I wanted to play a class that required combinations I would have played a Rogue.

edit:
For PvP I can see opponents waiting for a SwP to tick down then hit us with a Silence or CC, taking Insanity out. Just seems like a lot of set up to hit some big numbers, but if somehting goes wrong, could be a headache.

Maybe it will not be as complex as it seems from reading descriptions, but my biggest issue in Cata was having to rely on Add on programs to keep track of DoTs, and I found myself paying more attention to the add ons than the fights.

I know change is good, modifying some spells, giving us new and doing away with old, it feels like it is too much of an overhaul. Maybe if they came out and gave us a description of how they intend for things to be used it might help people like me understand. Like they did with Mind Spike.

I am not a theory crafter, what ever you guys come up with for a rotation or priority is what I will try to learn. I just feel like 3 years of learning a class are out the window and I am starting from scratch.

[Marathal]

Oh and where does Vamp Embrace fit in now? And will it have an impact on using Insanity or Mind spike.

[Soyzan]

The complexity of our rotation choices are huge. To the point where it really could feel to be too much. It's hard to tell until I get a Power aura setup, weakauras, tellmewhen or needtoknow just don't do it for me.
We have a complex rotation as it is. I believe that FDCL will be the preferred choice over Mindbender and Power word:Insanity.
It's fairly easy to understand that a spell you have that can only be used within a 5 sec window and only hits for 70-78k and removes a dot that hit for 9k normal hits and 22k crits under current conditions is a grey area spell. Also understand that for PW:I to work you need to apply SW:P, watch it's duration. use a gcd to apply SW:I, then use another gcd to re-apply SW:P. all this shit to get 78k dmg or if lucky a 170k dmg. I don't see it working well at all in PvE.
People are saying in PvP it'll be great as a mean to force dispellers to use their 8 sec dispels on SW:P, hence forcing full CC's. Since full CC's is worse then SW:I, dispels will be used for CC's not for SW:P's. Should SW:I become a big hitter like it need to be for PvE to be viable, then SW:I will also hit very hard in PvP and nuke people down. That would naturally end up being nerfed, due to it's effect in PvP, so SW:I will never be a good move in PvE.
Obviously being a Shadowpriest we also bring mass dispell, which should prove to be awesome in pvp with the dispell cd in Mist.

But back to PvE.
Looking at shadowpriest game play without SW:I, but with FDCL, which I see as the better choice of the three available in the lvl45 tier. Mostly due to most of the boss' in Mist require a lot of movement where FDCl will be awesome, paired with instant MBs, Halo and SW:P spamm and a little VT casting.

We need to watch two dots SW:P 19 sec.and VT 14sec.
Fit in FDCL proccs.
Fit in MB Proccs and normal MB off cd
Watch our Shadow Orbs count and apply DP w/ three Orbs.
Watch distance and cooldown of Halo. As it is on Beta Halo is just broken or the other two spells are. With close to perfect distance to mob or mobs will allow halo to hit for 170k+ per target! So it's major to use Halo in the right distance, should it go on live in the current state.
Then add internal cds on trinkets, Weapon and professions buffs. HP for SW:D execute w/ DP spamm.
And remember our Core identification spell now a shitty filler Mindflay every now and then, just to show the evil bosses of the world that we are idd the mighty shadowpriest, not a disfunctional cross breed between a mage and ret paladin or just the forth spec of a Warlock, who sadly, was taking a pee, when the other three specs had an orgy with a goddess and became demigods.

The rotations isnt that hard tho. A bit too much proc play, for my taste but it'll not be a problem. But then on top of this shit we have our most awesome utility to watch for.

Void Shift macro for tanks. A super strong CD.
VE use on special boss mechanics w/ frontloading dmg spells and cds.
Leap of Faith is outstanding if used correctly in special circumstances.
Prayer of Mending w/glyph macro on tanks during progression will be viable, I think. Renew not so much.
Mass dispel on debuff bosses could be very viable.
Hymn of Hope as always and even more so with bad gear on progression.
Tranquility w/ Symbiosis...
Silence and Horror everyone can, but at least it's an option for us in pve now.

We got a ton of options of being life savers while being dps'sers, but we aint freaking hunters who can do well with keyboard headsmashing, our rotation w/ proccs and semi short cds needs some attention, but during encounters I find myself watching grid too much. If all our options are done and used perfectly, I do not see a shadowpriest sitting out on anything due to our utility. But this aint TBC, we've been a mana battery already,
I love the massive amount of choices and stuff to hit, but I really dislike SW:I and it's complicated use, which I know will not be worth it, because if it will be worth it, it'll get nerfed due to it's effect in PvP.

Wall of text, pardon me

[Rubine]

Marathal I totally agree with most of what you just said. Shadow to me has always seemed pretty fluid and I enjoyed that. Now it seems like there is no good flow because you are always waiting forsome process to whack-a-mole. I'm not a fan at all.

And yeah there is definitely going to be a lot more focusing on UI to watch for procs and dot times to use insanity or whatever.