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[H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Drye » 23 Oct 2012, 14:33

Zarqa wrote:I know Drye is working on a post on this (can't find it if he already posted), but can someone confirm that this reasoning is correct please?

- Reaching 8085 haste will gain you 360PP
- Before and after that specific point, Haste is worth 0.4475PP (Twintop value, personal simcraft might give you a slightly different value)
- So, clearly giving up less than 360 int to gain 8085 haste is a straightforward DPS gain
- However, since each haste you gain over int is also valued at 0.4475 you only lose 0.5525PP by swapping out haste for int.
- 360/0.5525=651.58

Therefore, you can give up 651 int for haste to gain the Haste cap and see an increase in DPS. This is mostly attained through gems.
(to verify: (651x0.4475)+360=651)

After that, when your haste increases you should swap back haste-containing gems for int-containing gems piece by piece, making sure you stay above 8085 haste.

Correct?

Edit: reworked math and final numbers
Edit2: at the gear levels where you need gems to reach the haste cap, haste probably is worth less than 0.4475, lowering the int you can swap. Can Kilee/Twintop/Drye maybe give a better PP value for this?


Short answer yes, you are correct. I've had to level my alt/work/midterms and haven't really had much time to do anything at all on the side. Kilee is the one who gave me the pp value of the 8085 break point, so you would have to ask him on the math to back it up. But on topic, there are many multiple outliers that will throw off the number. I believe the number comes from full BIS which brought up the 360pp value, so that number will be much lower compared to the 12-16k int we have now to the 19-20k int we will have in BIS. Something that a lot of people tend to forget is that, every stat increase weather it be haste/crit/mastery/hit/int all have a direct correlation on each other (int obviously affecting the rest with the highest increase). So for a long and more accurate answer, there will be a different value for each bracket you are in roughly, ilvl wise(higher stats). With the small amount of int we currently have the breakpoint really isn't worth dropping lets say 700 int to get.

People really tend to over value the 8085 breakpoint because of the ".78" haste value. Most of those people, are who don't understand really what the breakpoint does. It adds an extra tick to the length of sw:p, so sw;p will go from ~17 seconds to ~19 seconds. This gain allows from more gcds throughout the fight, which is where the larger portion of the dps gain comes from, not the actual tick.

Now obviously this dps gain can be larger and less depending on the fight. If you look at a fight like stone guard, where you have a few targets to multi dot and keep dots on this dps increase will obviously be larger compared to a fight like spirit kings when there is a ton of movement in and you need to spam sw:p while moving.
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Zarqa » 23 Oct 2012, 16:31

Thank you very much for the reply Drye.
The reason I started thinking about this was indeed the 'mis-judged' 0.78 value of haste. People don't seem to realize that both before and after the haste point, haste is closer to 0.4 and Int is definitely worth at least 2x haste.

For me the equation I posted makes more sense: find a specific value of int that you can swap for haste to still gain a DPS increase with reaching 8085 haste.

I am currently going with a estimate of 560 int for haste to reach the breakpoint. In other words, I will change to full haste gemming when my reforged gear gets me within 1120 haste of 8085. Before that, I will value int higher.

Maybe we can come to a consensus value and add it to the guide, and not post the 0.78 value anymore?
Something like: For reforge and gemming purposes always use Int > Hit to cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery. But if you come within x haste of 8085, it will be a DPS increase to change int gems for haste gems to reach 8085. After that when gear improves, change haste back to int gems, as long as you stay above 8085. Might be overly complicated though.
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Spinalcrack » 23 Oct 2012, 19:16

The way I see it is like this:

8085 Haste breakpoint = 360pp roughly (I am basing this off others posts on H2P)

Using the stat weights from the BIS list and the guides; the big gemming question comes down to either

Brilliant Primordial Ruby = 160 PP
Reckless Vermilion Onyx = 151.6 PP
Quick Sun's Radiance = 143.2 PP

Meaning worst case you are losing 16.8pp (160-143.2) by using a Quick Sun's Radiance over a Brilliant Primordial Ruby.

Now take 16.88 x #of sockets you would normally gem Brilliant Primordial Ruby

and

if that value is less than 360pp you will at worst case do the same damage.

If it's a lot less than 360pp your damage, with everything else being equal, should go up slightly. If haste for you is scaling much higher than 0.4475, than it will go up even more.

If the value of 16.88 x #of sockets you would normally gem Brilliant Primordial Ruby is greater than 360 (or very close to 360), you're probably best to keep gemming int till you get another haste upgrade from gear.

You should never sacrifice ilvl, or hitcap to reach 8085 haste. Only thing I would say is worth looking at is gems, and only under the conditions I just laid out.

my 2 cents.
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Destard » 24 Oct 2012, 11:14

According to simcraft the 8064 and 8085 breakpoints together give you around 900DPS in T14H BiS-Gear. Which would be 225PP. Where is the thread that says 360PP?
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Spinalcrack » 24 Oct 2012, 12:04

Destard wrote:According to simcraft the 8064 and 8085 breakpoints together give you around 900DPS in T14H BiS-Gear. Which would be 225PP. Where is the thread that says 360PP?


It was mentioned here:

http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?p=18095#p18095

And seemed to be re-enforced here:

http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?p=18416#p18416

Was also mentioned here (but sounds like it was maybe picked up from the above posts already mentioned):

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1156538-Priest-Shadow-DPS-Guide?p=18844562&viewfull=1#post18844562

I believe though people came to this conclusion from Twintop's blog post here:

http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=205

Specifically,

The value of haste is 80% higher before these two Haste Breakpoints than it is once you have passed it! Additionally, the total DPS above the Haste Breakpoints is roughly 1100 DPS higher. From this we can (roughly) extrapolate that the value of surpassing both breakpoints is right around 1000 DPS.


I'm not sure of the math that puts 1000-1100dps at 360pp, but I think this is how people came to this idea of 8085 haste rating = +360pp

I am sure the numbers are not exact and would change with different gear sets and specs.

Maybe one of the mods can confirm the 360pp value as rumour or genuine.
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Destard » 24 Oct 2012, 12:29

It depends on what value int has at the moment you pass this breakpoint. In T14H it is sth around 4dps/int, that's why I meant it is more like 225-250PP.
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Schisme » 24 Oct 2012, 15:14

Drye wrote:Sometimes I wonder if people even read what I post.


I can answer that for you. No.

"And my DPS was..... shit because I play shadow." -Valiane
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby StPaul » 25 Oct 2012, 04:40

Drye wrote:Sometimes I wonder if people even read what I post.


I do, but I'm still wondering about gemming under haste cap:

Blue: int/spirit or haste/spirit
Red: pure int or int/haste
Yellow: pure haste or int/haste
Prismatic: pure int, pure haste or int/haste
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Destard » 25 Oct 2012, 04:42

That always depends on your gear. Are you able to reach the 8085Haste? What is the pp-value for haste in comparison to int for your char?
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Re: [H2P] Shadow Haste Break Points

Postby Woaden » 25 Oct 2012, 04:45

StPaul wrote:I do, but I'm still wondering about gemming under haste cap:

Blue: int/spirit or haste/spirit
Red: pure int or int/haste
Yellow: pure haste or int/haste
Prismatic: pure int, pure haste or int/haste


tl;dnr - Purified, Reckless, Brilliant unless you're relatively close to 8085 Haste then you can stick in some Quicks.
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