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Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Trevar » 06 Feb 2013, 16:26

I'm curious what's going on with these weird suggestions from askmrrobot.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ ... ldt/trevar

It's telling me to use Quick gems (pure haste) instead of Reckless gems (intellect+haste) in something like my Ruby-Linked Girdle. As a matter of fact, it is telling me to use quick gems for every yellow gem slot. Is this because it gets me to some haste breakpoint? Or is it just making a mistake?
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Twintop » 06 Feb 2013, 16:39

Yep, AMR pulls out all the stops to get you to the Haste breakpoint you specify (which is still incorrect on their site at 24.92% {DP+2} instead of 24.97% {SWP+2 / 4P T14 VT+2}).

This is months after we told them about the breakpoint being worth ~400-500 Int and that they're shooting for the wrong breakpoint by default.

Don't use them until they fix their system and actually follow what the community tells them is accurate. It's as simple as that.
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Trevar » 06 Feb 2013, 16:55

Is there a similar site which will give me the ideal configuration? What with gems and reforging, it's really hard to calculate everything.

My understanding is that I should get to 24.97 haste, then 15% hit, then crit, and finally mastery.

BUT the thing is, you can reforge to get more haste (or less haste) as needed, but you can't reforge into intellect. So my understanding was that you should always maximize your intellect where you can, i.e. with gems.

I mean, I don't think I'm hitting 41.68% haste to get the next tick, so why would I ever lose out on the intellect of a Reckless gem?

Twintop, assuming this is you (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/m ... p/advanced), you have Quick Sun's Radiance in a prismatic socket when you could have a brilliant gem. Can you explain why?
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Twintop » 06 Feb 2013, 17:04

Trevar wrote:Is there a similar site which will give me the ideal configuration? What with gems and reforging, it's really hard to calculate everything.


Not really. There are some reforging websites out there but nothing close to being as all-encompassing as AMR attempts to be. Therein lies the problem, though: they tool would be great if they could get their act together and make adjustments in a timely fashion. Instead they just go along with "good enough", where "good enough" = "incorrect".

Trevar wrote:My understanding is that I should get to 24.97 haste, then 15% hit, then crit, and finally mastery.


15% Hit first, then 24.97% Haste if you don't lose more than 400-500 int to reach it (via regemming and enchants).

Trevar wrote:BUT the thing is, you can reforge to get more haste (or less haste) as needed, but you can't reforge into intellect. So my understanding was that you should always maximize your intellect where you can, i.e. with gems.

I mean, I don't think I'm hitting 41.68% haste to get the next tick, so why would I ever lose out on the intellect of a Reckless gem?

Twintop, assuming this is you (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/m ... p/advanced), you have Quick Sun's Radiance in a prismatic socket when you could have a brilliant gem. Can you explain why?


Yep, that is me. I have that gem because losing the 160int is worthwhile to get past 8085 / 24.97% Haste Breakpoint. I could just as easily replace two +160int gems with +80int/+160haste to get the same effect.

See this thread for more details: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1748
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Trevar » 06 Feb 2013, 17:20

It appears that on askmrrobot, you can Edit the weights. I changed the haste value's soft cap to .2497. (I'm not sure how the soft-capped weight value works, so I left if "1.6".)

I ran your profile with the default value of .2493 haste cap, and it optimized and suggested you make no changes.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ ... th/twintop with the
I then changed the haste cap to .2497 in the edit weights section. It STILL says your gear is optimized. That's a little odd. I guess it doesn't matter with your gear. I'm not sure if you reforged with askmrrobot in mind, but if you didn't, it seems to be double checking your choices.

I'm going to use the value of .2497 and see how it optimizes me.
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Twintop » 06 Feb 2013, 17:33

Trevar wrote:It appears that on askmrrobot, you can Edit the weights. I changed the haste value's soft cap to .2497. (I'm not sure how the soft-capped weight value works, so I left if "1.6".)

I ran your profile with the default value of .2493 haste cap, and it optimized and suggested you make no changes.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ ... th/twintop with the
I then changed the haste cap to .2497 in the edit weights section. It STILL says your gear is optimized. That's a little odd. I guess it doesn't matter with your gear. I'm not sure if you reforged with askmrrobot in mind, but if you didn't, it seems to be double checking your choices.

I'm going to use the value of .2497 and see how it optimizes me.


Set your Haste value to something like 0.4000 and it'll go balls-out to try and get there, even if it results in a lower 'optimized' value. There were times when I was around 6800 Haste and checked what AMR would report and the 'optimized' gear/enchants ended up being about 1500 points lower than what I already had. If what I already have has a higher score than what the system is suggesting, that's a fundamentally broken system. :|
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Trevar » 06 Feb 2013, 17:39

Twintop wrote:
Trevar wrote:It appears that on askmrrobot, you can Edit the weights. I changed the haste value's soft cap to .2497. (I'm not sure how the soft-capped weight value works, so I left if "1.6".)

I ran your profile with the default value of .2493 haste cap, and it optimized and suggested you make no changes.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ ... th/twintop with the
I then changed the haste cap to .2497 in the edit weights section. It STILL says your gear is optimized. That's a little odd. I guess it doesn't matter with your gear. I'm not sure if you reforged with askmrrobot in mind, but if you didn't, it seems to be double checking your choices.

I'm going to use the value of .2497 and see how it optimizes me.


Set your Haste value to something like 0.4000 and it'll go balls-out to try and get there, even if it results in a lower 'optimized' value. There were times when I was around 6800 Haste and checked what AMR would report and the 'optimized' gear/enchants ended up being about 1500 points lower than what I already had. If what I already have has a higher score than what the system is suggesting, that's a fundamentally broken system. :|

If I set haste so high, it seem to completely favor haste, even at the expense of hit.
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Woaden » 06 Feb 2013, 21:55

1) Don't use AMR
2) Gem correctly
3) ReforgeLite
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Trevar » 07 Feb 2013, 12:07

Woaden wrote:1) Don't use AMR
2) Gem correctly
3) ReforgeLite

By "Gem correctly", do you mean Brilliant for red, Reckless for Yellow, and Purified for Blue? I think most of the socket bonuses are worth it. My heroic belt has a really weak bonus of only 60 hit, so perhaps I should put a brilliant gem into Ruby-Linked Girdle and get the hit elsewhere.
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Re: Quick gems instead of Reckless?

Postby Trevar » 07 Feb 2013, 12:56

I tried testing out these 2 methods of gemming/reforging.

One way I used quick gems as much as I could. (And used haste+spirit to get blue socket bonus and haste+intellect to get red socket bonus.) And after maximizing haste through gemming, I reforged as per the instructions of askmrrobot. The result was:Image

The other method I used was the reckless gem approach. (I used intellect gems for red sockets, intellect+haste for yellow sockets, and intellect+spirit for blue sockets.) I then used ReforgeLite, telling it to hit cap me and get me to 8085 haste. The result was:Image

The idea behind the latter method is that you can gem for intellect, but you can't reforge for more intellect, so you should get it where you can. As long as you have enough haste to get 8085 haste, you should maximize your intellect. (more info:http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1748)

So which is better? I used simcraft to test. These are the settings I used:Image

Results for Quick gem method:Image

Results for Reckless gem method:Image

So it seems like Woaden is right. I should always gem for intellect as a priority instead of haste. But the difference in DPS was pretty close. (Only 354.4 DPS, or about 0.4%.)

An interesting thing to note is askmrrobot says BOTH of these fairly different methods of gemming/reforging are "optimized", when one method is superior. I was under the impression that askmrrobot was smarter than that, but it seems like it only checks a few things, rather than test all permutations. The lesson from this is to use askmrrobot only as a 2nd opinion of your choices. Never just blindly follow its "optimized" suggestion.

So I'm going with the reckless method, which is what I have currently. (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/r ... r/advanced)
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