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Shadow Performance in SoO

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Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Shardstorm » 24 Jan 2014, 00:15

Not the case for any other spec. They all have good and bad fights, sure, but shadow has 2 good, 10 bad and 2 unplayable ones.
Total hyperbole. They have 3 great, 2 bad, 9 average, damage-wise. Most of those they have very high utility. (Source)


I'm a little unsure of which fights are being referenced here. Great would be Protectors, Spoils and... Galakras? Bad would maybe be Iron Juggernautt and Malkarok? I'm interested on peoples opinions here. I crush my raid on Protectors and Spoils, but I've never felt strong on Galakras. Too much down time hurts us. On the other hand, I topped our H Malk progression kill. I've always been the swing on IJ though so I've got no idea where I'd sit on that.

I definitely have noticed as we all hit 575ish ilvl I'm having to work harder to win multi dot fights and I drop to middle of the pack single target.

Edit: I'm in a 11/14H 10 Man for what it's worth. Not cutting edge, but no slouches for 7 hours a week.
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Alet » 24 Jan 2014, 07:10

You forgot General nazgrim, we do great there, not galakras ( at least not me, on tower team).
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Hygeia » 24 Jan 2014, 08:19

It is an accurate assessment. There are no fights that we're "unplayable" on. The two bad are without a doubt IJ and Malk but it's not unplayable by any means. If you topped your first Malk kill then your raid/raiders were doing something terribly, terribly wrong or there was a gross discrepancy in gear.
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Velinart » 24 Jan 2014, 20:01

On Malkorok we do easily 150k hps (240 on my last kill), you have to take that in consideration
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Rubine » 24 Jan 2014, 22:25

Velinart wrote:On Malkorok we do easily 150k hps (240 on my last kill), you have to take that in consideration

Except an Elemental/Enhance shaman can do far more HPS while doing far more DPS.

Don't worry though, elemental got buffed recently because they were really hurting...
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Tanned » 25 Jan 2014, 09:11

I don't like that we're balanced around the utility (read: automatic healing) we bring, but that we've got no choice in the matter.

Choosing to provide utility at a cost of DPS is much better game design than being forced to bring it with no DPS choice. For example, I feel cool on Thok when I spec Divine Star to help with raid healing.
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Kilee » 25 Jan 2014, 12:38

If healing at the cost of dps were a choice, I seriously doubt many people would choose to do it. Even divine star dpses at a very minimal (if none at all) loss - if it did absolutely no dps, would you still use it?
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Blackmorgrim » 26 Jan 2014, 09:07

Tbh, I think there's a gain to be had for trading Shadowpriests for healers in 25 raids. Tbh, I think if anyone actually tried it might actually be deemed good, but the level on which you'd have to do it would really be against Blizz's design in the first place.

So if shadow were utilized to make the best of what we have, Blizz has balanced us so that we'd have to be nerfed further.
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Kilee » 26 Jan 2014, 13:49

Yes, but there's an inherent problem with that.

I assume by "taking the best advantage of a shadowpriest", you mean dropping a healer and counting on the shadow-priest's passive healing to carry the weight. To be even more precise, we're basically talking about divine star and using packed groups, correct? Because halo as a reliable passive healing mechanic doesn't work, and switching to a friendly target to cast the "bouncy heal" (forgot the name) is not a practical solution.

So right off the bat, even if you try to use different talents, your group's setup and strategy plays a very big role in whether or not the shadowpriest's passive healing can be relied on to fill the position of a dropped healer.

Furthermore, now you get into the old "intentional healing versus passive healing" argument, and the age-old question of whether or not passive healing even matters, or whether it just heals damage that would've been healed anyway. (Or in other words, overhealing or just plain old wasted healing.)

Personally I think the only time shadowpriests worked that way was back in Wrath, when our passive healing (through VE) could be stacked within groups to provide consistent, constant healing.

I'm not saying our current healing doesn't matter or help now - of course it does - but I don't think it eliminates the need for X amount of healers, because there's just simply too little control over who gets healed or when they get healed.

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I digress that you may be talking about having shadowpriests switch back and forth between actively healing - ie renews, flash heals, shields, etc... - and dpsing. Or even trying to do both. Yes, that's possible, and I do that when I can. In limited situations I've even saved fights doing that. But I think Bliz has done a pretty decent job of nerfing our healing to the point that it's more of a "last resort" than something that we're utilized for. As basically every time a shadowpriest casts a pure healing spell, they cut off DPS by an equal amount, at that point you have to ask why the healers aren't doing that job.

There's emergency situations, sure, the but I don't think the game is designed in such a way that you need to do it that way. I don't even think we truly want the game to work that way. Designing the game around having people need to purposely pull dual roles within a fight would probably just discourage people from playing classes that can do it.

I feel "awesome" when I notice someone dying and heal them because I'm the only one who can. But if I consistently have to do this, I start to feel annoyed - is that person standing too far out of range, is a healer consistently dying, what's going on that I have to keep doing that?
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Re: Shadow Performance in SoO

Postby Shardstorm » 26 Jan 2014, 15:23

It's interesting the Blizz implicitly said Hybrid tax is back, but they basically called it a Utility tax? Anyway, balance our utility against everything a Warlock brings and it makes for a pretty sore point.

As an aside, I think you're wrong Kilee. SoO has largely been about burst healing. You can essentially bring a SPriest for a VE, and drop a healer that is mostly bringing a well placed CD. If you've got enough off spec CD's to cover the burst windows in a three minute period, you can get away with a shockingly small number of healers on a lot of fights. Prime example is Garrosh and how the World First groups hit the DPS checks by dropping healers. So in that regard, yeah you could probably drop heals and get by with Shadow Priests, especially if it was a fight with stack points for DS goodness. Maybe someone should do that to make a point to Blizz that the system as it stands is a bit dumb.
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