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Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby Marathal » 08 Aug 2012, 14:54

I know that you guys will say take this do that and you will be fine but that does not help a new player to shadow. Telling people that they need to improve their uptimes on dots was easy. Learn to refresh better. Always cat Mind Blast on CD, don't wait for orbs, SwD at 25% or if you need a quick mana recharge.

And I feel that there will be a huge gap. The experienced player and those that can't master it or don't really know, and the difference in DPS will be noticeable enough to sit people out.
Last edited by Marathal on 10 Aug 2012, 08:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby SaintinRexxar » 08 Aug 2012, 18:38

Twintop wrote:
Marathal wrote:I just don't understand the logic. You work hard to get a 4pc set and the bonus is an increase to Insanity, therefore you have to take Insanity or the bonus is just wasted and you are better off with a 2 piece and two better non tier pieces.


Cut'n'paste from my post over on MMO:

The old 4p bonus (without the +15% to SWI) increased the length of SWP and VT by 3 seconds, from 18sec to 21 sec for SWP. If you chose to take SWI as your talent, this means that instead of being able to cast SWI after 12 seconds (18-12 = 6, the threshold to cast SWI), you'd have to wait 15 seconds until you can cast SWI.

Over the course of a fight (figuring that every 15sec you'd have SWP up and ticking, SWI, and reapply SWP) at 15sec per set, if the fight was 450seconds long you could get 30 SWIs off (if perfectly executed). If it took 18 sec to do this set of casts, that means in a 450seconds long fight you can only get off 25 SWIs.

5 less SWI casts because of a set bonus is a huge nerf to the potential damage in fight of the spell.

25/30 = 83.33% the number of casts = 83.33% the amount of damage, so if you buff the damage done by each SWI with the 4 piece (0.8333 * 1.15) you get 95.83% damage. If anything, the 15% buff to SWI doesn't bring it back up to par without the 4P bonus. If they wanted to make it even out, they should have made it a 20% increased damage.


Correct me if I am wrong, but another problem with SW:I is it scales backwards with haste. The tooltip may say you can cast it when 6 seconds is left, but in reality it is just after the third to last tick of SWP. This creates a shorter window (and takes longer) the more haste you have.

Tick 1: 15 sec.
Tick 2: 12 sec.
Tick 3: 9 sec.
Tick 4: 6 sec. - Can cast SW:I immediately after this.
Tick 5: 3 sec.
Tick 6: 0 sec.

With haste (1.26s GCD)

Tick 1: 15.12 sec.
Tick 2: 12.6 sec.
Tick 3: 10.08 sec.
Tick 4: 7.56 sec.
Tick 5: 5.04 sec. - Can cast SW:I immediate after this.
Tick 6: 2.52 sec.
Tick 7: 0 sec.

So, with more haste it takes LONGER to cast SW:I than with no haste. This means as you move up in Tiers/gear you will effectively cast SW:I less. You are seeing it taking 1 second longer between those examples.
This means off say a 6 minute fight, you'd cast SW:I one time less than with no haste.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby Marathal » 08 Aug 2012, 19:02

so pretty much we lose 2 ticks in addition to using a GCD to recast. At the very least we lose 1 tick if we hold out to the last possible second.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby SaintinRexxar » 08 Aug 2012, 19:14

Marathal wrote:so pretty much we lose 2 ticks in addition to using a GCD to recast. At the very least we lose 1 tick if we hold out to the last possible second.


Yes, and you end up casting it less the more haste you have. The spell is horribly designed. It doesn't scale with mastery and seems to scale backwards with haste. Mindbender scales with haste and crit. FDCL scales with haste, crit, and mastery.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby Marathal » 08 Aug 2012, 19:24

removed
Last edited by Marathal on 10 Aug 2012, 08:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby Alae » 08 Aug 2012, 19:35

Marathal wrote:making us crazy


they already do that when give fdcl +50% damage. fdcl now give +17% damage

IMHO:they buff us when nerf other class to the groud xD
Last edited by Alae on 08 Aug 2012, 19:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby SaintinRexxar » 08 Aug 2012, 19:42

Marathal wrote:Just a thought here.

Why not have SwP the way it is now. Refreshed with MF. VT I think is still in a good place.

Now my thought. Ok. 3 orbs to cast DP and insanity consumes DP when less than 6 seconds. We need to generate orbs anyway to recast so nothing more than we would be doing anyway.

Just an idea. I guess we will find out more later or sooner. Speculation on what is or could/should be is making us crazy

Either they know what the issues are and are working at getting a fix while juggling every other class mechanics or they know more than we do and we will either like or hate the shipped product.

Worst case a lot of people shelve their priest in favor of other max alt's or roll new panda monks. Time will tell.


At the moment, orbs only act as a CD for Devouring Plague. We have no other PvE use for orbs. They could just put DP on a CD and remove orbs all together...and increase the PH cooldown.

I'd like to see our DoTs do more damage, even if it means VT becomes only usable on one target at a time. They could switch SWP and VT in FDCL and DI talents respectively. This would fix the DI procs in multidotting while allowing our DoTs to tick harder -- and still allow use to multidot with SWP as an instant.

The fact that I can't cast PI on anyone but myself makes the talent that less attractive.

I've actually stopped development on my Spriest addon and thinking about just going healing with Mistweaver.

I love the changes they made. The possibilities that could happen with the class exploded with that change, but that is where my excitement stops short. The class really only feels 60% complete.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby Entice » 08 Aug 2012, 23:57

Hi all.

First off I'd like to thank everyone that made things possible. Veiled, Kilee, Marathal, Twin, Vampiroth, Rubine everyone in the community that supported our class with such effort.

It is you guys that made me shine, from being laughed at my dps output to ranking few times in wwl and sought after by many to help in their guild DS progressions. I once ran into Rubine in lfr (unless theres another Rubine same realm same guild lol) long time back and was neck to neck on recount. I knew I played my class right.

2nd im not much of theorycrafter nor good at numbers but, i guess my priest was my first baby and perhaps how I leveled her, I have always played "hybrid". Over the years, I've thrown out Mendings, renew, bubbles in raids/ instances when situations seem dire while dpsing. It didnt bother me with the shadow form going in and out. SO long I save the situation.

Looking at the new MoP changes (New VE, Glyph that allows you to cast mending renew w/o removing shadowform), is this how the designers intend where Shadowpriest will be? I just cant explain why our dps numbers are this low compared to other classes other then this "side" job we're given.

Still the healing numbers are so minute it doesnt even help with anything. And worst off yes I so totally agree, I lost my shadow feel. I dont know what I am anymore. Rotations whichever talent I chose just felt like Im playing Dora with a gun.

I guess its time I stand up and be heard.
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby Rubine » 09 Aug 2012, 00:35

Yeah it was me! :-)
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Re: Unhappy with the feel of shadow?

Postby Veiled » 09 Aug 2012, 01:09

Vampiroth's thread is on the front page of MMOC, yay! haha
derevka wrote:I agree with Veiled.

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