3202 Haste ?

[Bwiz]

Hi everybody ,

Can someone explain to me what 3202 haste plateau is ?

Thanks for your answers.

[Schisme]

It increases the damage that Improved Devouring Plague does. Although I don't think it actually provides an additional tick of DP. I'm pretty sure Imp DP is calculated really weird somehow, I've never cared enough to figure it out though.

[Piazzolla]

I'm pretty sure Imp DP is calculated really weird somehow, I've never cared enough to figure it out though.

It ignores buffs, racials, procs, etc etc. In one sense, it's convenient because it's 3202 for everybody all the time instead of being different for goblins, with or without DI etc.

[Dahk]

Dwiz - Super question. If go to Kilee's SP Guide here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=340

Hit Ctrl+F and search the page for "3202" you will get the official answer. If you haven't already I would suggest reading the whole thing, its a fantastic piece of work.


Regarding some of the responses to Dwiz's post...

Haste does not increase damage done, it increases the frequency of damage done. This is a standard across all classes/specs in WoW. Haste works exactly the same for DP as it does for all other dots. Dot ticks in WoW are 3 sec, as you gain haste the tick time for your dot will decrease. For example at 36.93% haste, your tick time will be 2.19 sec. Dot duration's though vary quite a bit from spell to spell. Devouring Plague has a 24 sec duration (which in WoW speak means 24.999 sec). As you gain haste that total duration will decrease until it reaches a limit. At this point the dot is reset to its original duration and you get an extra tick of damage inside the total duration.

I did a quick test to show you what I mean, 85 Goblin in Shadow Form. This shows how haste affects Devouring Plague.

The first entry is naked, no gear:

H= 0000 = 09.23% = 09 Ticks = 2.75s Tick = 24.71s Dur
H= 0284 = 11.65% = 09 Ticks = 2.69s Tick = 24.18s Dur
H= 0558 = 13.99% = 09 Ticks = 2.63s Tick = 23.69s Dur
H= 0852 = 16.50% = 09 Ticks = 2.58s Tick = 23.18s Dur
H= 1028 = 18.00% = 09 Ticks = 2.54s Tick = 22.88s Dur
H= 1294 = 20.27% = 10 Ticks = 2.49s Tick = 24.94s Dur
H= 1522 = 22.21% = 10 Ticks = 2.46s Tick = 24.55s Dur
H= 1841 = 24.94% = 10 Ticks = 2.40s Tick = 24.01s Dur
H= 2137 = 27.46% = 10 Ticks = 2.35s Tick = 23.54s Dur
H= 2299 = 28.84% = 10 Ticks = 2.33s Tick = 23.28s Dur
H= 2447 = 30.10% = 10 Ticks = 2.31s Tick = 23.06s Dur
H= 2558 = 31.05% = 10 Ticks = 2.29s Tick = 22.89s Dur
H= 2704 = 32.30% = 11 Ticks = 2.27s Tick = 24.95s Dur
H= 3162 = 36.20% = 11 Ticks = 2.20s Tick = 24.23s Dur
H= 3247 = 36.93% = 11 Ticks = 2.19s Tick = 24.10s Dur

As you can see tick duration gets quicker at a steady rate as haste increases, and the dot duration resets every time an extra tick is added. It appears I get an extra DP tick at approx. 20% haste and again at approx. 32% haste. I didn't fool around with it enough to try to get a precise number.

This however does bring in to question the 1601 and 3202 numbers. As you can see I am definitely getting my extra ticks before those numbers are reached. I will assume for the time being that I am looking at something wrong until I can take the time to verify it more thoroughly.

[Bwiz]

Thank's for the answer :)
It's clear to me now.

[Kilee]

Hi Dahk, the numbers you found are correct. There are two different components to Devouring Plague.

1. Dot component - number of them, frequency, duration.
2. Initial Damage componnet - the "improved" portion of the dot that happens at the moment it is cast.

These two components work off of different haste modifiers. The first component obeys haste talents, buffs, racials, etc... That is why you see an extra tick at 1300-ish and 2700-ish.

The second compnent, however, is not affected by talents, buffs, racials, etc... it only goes off of haste from gear. That is why you need 1600-ish and 3202 in order to reach damage increases for that part of the spell.

--------------------------------

For the first compenent. It is not considered a "haste plateau" when reaching an extra tick. This is for two main reasons. One, we typically do not let DP count all the way down before refreshing it, because we typically use DP whenever we are moving, and because refreshing DP whenever a proc comes up is an increase to dps. (Therefore, casting it less is not helpful.)

For the second component, it's actuall an increase in dps to use this judiciously in our rotation. Hitting DP is often an increase in DPS over Mind Flay, so - in genera - you would let DP tick all the way down before tapping it again. Many simulations show an increase in dps when hitting DP at around 15 seconds or so.

For this reason, we do not consider getting an extra tick on DP to be a "haste plateau". However, getting additional damage on the 2nd component IS a haste plateau, because we get a noticeable increase in damage upon reaching. (This number is about 120 dps, or more, depending on cast frequency of DP.)

-------------------------------

There's been speculation on why blizzard designed it this way. If you remember, some time in tier 11, they nerfed the 2nd (improved) component of DP because it was getting to be an increase in DPS to "weave" it into your rotation all the time. MF -> DP -> MF - DP etc... Blizzard basically doesn't want us to cast this way. If the IMP DP portion followed normal haste modifiers, we'd be doing a rotation like this all the time, or they would endup having to nerf it again every time a new patch came out (with access to more gear and higher haste). So basically it was a "bandaide solution" to keep Imp DP from scaling too quickly.

-------------------------------

Hope this helps.

[Dahk]

This is kinda blowing my mind, I don't think I really understood how Improved DP worked. None of this stuff seems to be noted in game, say on a tooltip etc. So let me see if I got this right.

When you cast DP, IDP instantly damages target for 30% of the dots damage. Blizzard behind the scenes without anything eluding to it in game gives you extra damage baked in to IDP when you hit 1601 or 3202 haste on the paperdoll. You elude to the fact this was done as a sort of compensation because they changed the spell so it wouldn't be advantageous to cast it more frequently than intended for a dot. Do I at least have that part correct?

I guess what I am still confused on is exactly how they changed it so you wouldn't want to weave it in like you describe and why Haste makes a difference in that? You can't technically spam DP. You can cast DP, have IDP hit, then as soon as your global is up hit DP again and IDP will again damage the target. From there it gets a little weird. If you try to cast DP again when the global is up, you fail to cast, something about a more powerful spell being active. This continues until about the 1.5s mark then it will let you cast DP again and IDP will hit. Then you have to wait another 1.5ish sec to cast again.

I guess what I am asking is what is the difference if IDP follows normal haste modifiers or not. Its a single point of damage that affects the target the moment that DP is cast. Is it because it is a % based of the duration, so lowering the time exaggerates the damage done?

I hate math, lol :-)

[Blackmorgrim]

Actually it works like this...

0 Haste = 30% of 8 Ticks
1 Haste = 30% of 9 Ticks
1601 Haste = 30% of 10 Ticks
3202 Haste = 30% of 11 Ticks

If you go back into the Cata beta archives on Shadowpriest.com there's actually a long discussion Althor and I have about it, and how odd it works. There should be a topic about "Checking the numbers" if you're interested in the actual math behind its calculation.

As far as how ticks are calculated, DP has 8 ticks base. 1/8 = 12.5% per tick. So technically, you should gain a tick every 12.5% haste. However... Blizzard 'rounds up' to the next tick...

0 haste = 8 Ticks
6.25% haste = 9 Ticks
18.75% haste = 10 Ticks
31.25% haste = 11 Ticks

This also means when you gain a tick just over a haste plateau... DP will last slightly longer than 24 seconds.

0 Haste: DP lasts 24 secs

6.24% Haste: DP lasts 22.59 secs
6.25% Haste: DP lasts 25.41 secs

18.74% Haste: DP lasts 22.73 secs
18.75% Haste: DP lasts 25.26 secs

31.24% Haste: DP lasts 22.86 secs
31.25% Haste: DP lasts 25.14 secs

VT works the same way, which is why we see such a dps increase when we gain VT ticks.

If Imp DP damage were calculated in this way, Trolls and Goblins would be extremely powerful... particularly trolls... at 35% haste, a troll would reach over 210% haste by popping berserking during bloodlust meaning Imp DP would do 30% of SEVENTEEN ticks... meaning unbuffed, with empowered shadows and evangelism, my Imp DPs would hit for around 19.8k non-crit. Which would put it above the priority of even a 0 orb MB. It'd be pretty OP.

With regards to the 'more powerful spell' error... Basically Blizzard added a restriction to DP, so it couldn't be spammed like back in Wrath. You can't recast DP on the same target until the current one ticks at least once.

[Arlee]

There's been speculation on why blizzard designed it this way. If you remember, some time in tier 11, they nerfed the 2nd (improved) component of DP because it was getting to be an increase in DPS to "weave" it into your rotation all the time. MF -> DP -> MF - DP etc... Blizzard basically doesn't want us to cast this way. If the IMP DP portion followed normal haste modifiers, we'd be doing a rotation like this all the time, or they would endup having to nerf it again every time a new patch came out (with access to more gear and higher haste). So basically it was a "bandaide solution" to keep Imp DP from scaling too quickly.

I have been thinking about this recently too and a thought that occurred to me is that back in Vanilla it was not unusual for a druid to spam moonfire to kill people in PvP, it was super annoying and frustrating. My thought about Imp DP is that if they made it scale off everything, we'd prob just be running around spam'ing a lot of DP in PvP and they probably wouldn't want that either.

Just my speculation there though :)

[Dahk]

I found the thread, Google seems to have cached it into immortality! Very good stuff, and I think I actually understand how it works now, which I very obviously didn't before.

Thanks Black